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The future of the white shepherd in Europe (24 replies)
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Hi, I'm just a fan of the white shepherd, I'm not a breeder.
I've been following the development of the breed since 2002 and instead of understanding the path in which the responsables (breeders,clubs,FCI) drive the breed to, I am more confused every time
We now have almost two different standards, at least in the race illustration,
some countries have more than one white shepherd club, some even have three different clubs or breeders organizations.
We now have two big organizations which englobe white swiss shepherds national clubs BBI and FBBSI trying to control breeding programmes banning one to each other.
So if the genepool was short it'll be shorter.
The FCI.be tries to regulate the breeding with circulars but in every country we can find examples of prominent kennels which continue breeeding their WSSD with WGSD from UKC, AKC or dogs from countries that are'nt exactly FCI regulated.
Not all FCI national kennel clubs take that seriously the new regulations and continue expending initial WSSD registration to dogs with unknown origins or dogs from american organizations that immediately enter breeding programmes. Meanwhile breeders from countries like for ex. Germany must follow the rule.
Experimented FCI judges comment the breed is getting out of standard, developing into too heavy, big dogs which in same cases have problems with their coat which, in their words, is getting too thick. Seems the WSSD is getting too short or too tall and the 12:10 is rarely seen and it's movement is affected.
It seems to me short and long coated are irremadiably becoming two different breeds with kennels very specialized in the coat of their dogs. It will sound reasonable to mate the short with long (bigger genepool)
When I take a look at the standard I can read the WSSD is a Family and working companion dog
but is rare to find studs which own in their pedigree working titles (better not talk about the females) and the character of the breed is getting closer to a labrador than to a shepherd dog. It seems most breeders dont believe in the working abilities of the WSSD.
Character tests are used in some countries but most of them dont. EVERY BREEDING DOG SHOULD HAVE PASSED A CHARACTER TEST, regulated by the national club kennel.
I would'nt like people to take these words as an statement, they are just questions I make myself.
I would like to know all your opinions. Please let me know if I'm wrong for the benefit of the breed
Thank you |
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Hallo !
Ich bin zwar Züchterin, aber keine FCI- Züchterin.
Meines Wissens ist der Weisse Schweizer Schäferhund kein Arbeitshund, sonder ein Familien -und Begleithund. Wieso sollte man viele WSS mit Arbeitsprüfungen sehen, wenn sie von den einzelnen Verbänden nicht verlangt werden und dies auch nicht dem Standard enspricht. Viele Verbände und Vereine darum, weil sich die Leute untereinander nicht verstehen und Neid und Missgunst an der Tagesordnung sind ! Andere Züchter werden schlecht gemacht, obwohl sie teilweise bessere Hunde haben als manch andere und diese bemüht sind Inzucht zu vermeiden und nicht nur auf Schönheit züchten. Da gibt es sooooo viele Dinge die nicht richtig laufen, aber jeder meint seine Meinung ist die einzig richtige und die muss er durchsetzen.
Liebe Grüße Maria |
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Maria thanks for your opinion.
Hope I understood correctly your post.
I fully respect your status outside the FCI, though in my opinion the WSSD is a working dog among family and companion, at least that's what is wrote in the FCI standard.
I ca'nt fully believe the only reason for the division is just jealousy, is there any better reason for it? MUST BE.
Beautiful dogs of yours
Congratulations and good luck with your kennel
Regards
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Ja, nicht nur Eifersucht, da waren auch viele Streitereien unter den Züchtern.Jeder denkt das er der BESTE Züchter der welt ist und alles richtig macht. Viel wird auch verheimlicht was nicht gut war und wenn dann wer drauf kommt, dann ist der Streit schon wider perfekt. Mein damit , die Vereine können unter solchen Bedingungen nicht zusammenarbeiten und schuld sind immer die Menschen. Lustig ist ja das viele Hunde aus Amerika und england und ......... registriert werden können, aber Hunde, so wie ich sie habe, deren Ahnen schon FCI-Papiere hatten, die werden nicht als WHITE SWISS SHEPHERD registriert. Das geht dann nicht, aber woran liegt das wohl !? Da geht es dann wieder darum das die FCI Züchter die Konkurez ausmerzen wollen, also sie sagen selber Schuld wenn man einen Hund mit solchen Papieren gekauft hat und nicht gleich einen mit FCI Papiere. Da gibt es so viel das nicht korrekt ist , aber ich streite mich da nicht und mache meine Sache weiter.
Mit meinen Hunden mache ich Obidience und mit einer Hündin habe ich auch die schutzhundeprüfung gemacht. Meine Hunde leben mit mir und der Familie im haus und sie sind wie meine Kinder.
LG Maria |
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Not exactly sure what Maria is writing since it appears to be in German.
I personally think the countries need to be more open and not restrict themselves to new blood.
It doesn't surprise me though, I see many breeders not understanding the Breed Standard or even what conformation is. Many just see the opportunity to create more white balls of fluff!
I think that if people are getting into the breed, they need to understand that it IS a working breed and not a "pretty" dog that just looks good.
The WSS imports we have here in Australia - I hear very bad things about.... shy/agressive temperaments and biting judges! These dogs are not worked either... Just bred and not trained properly and paraded around the show ring... Why? I do not understand!
Even worse... I hear there are new people to the breed with no knowledge that are importing into Australia from Europe! More people who don't have any idea about the breed getting them!
We have struggled so much with the breed here, it's a strange feeling to know that people with no experience are going to import new lines, but have no real idea about the breed or what to do with them! |
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hallo maria,
das ist nicht ganz richtig, was du schreibst. jeder hund, ob mit oder ohne AT kann beim VDH registriert werden und bekommt registrierpapiere der FCI (RWS oder BVWS). damit kann man ausstellen und sport machen. für die zucht kann man jedoch beim BVWS immernoch hunde registrieren lassen! dafür müssen bestimmte bedingungen erfüllt werden. zb. muß die herkunft ohne zweifel dargestellt und nachgewiesen werden können. dann ist es immernoch möglich... weiß nicht, woher diese "märchen" immer kommen, daß dies nicht möglich ist?
zum thema züchter und vereine möchte ich nichts sagen... aber ich finde, daß jeder züchter auch im sinne der rasse handeln sollte und für die rasse arbeiten sollte, egal in welchem verein man ist. ein zuchtziel sollte jeder haben und dieses auch verfolgen... welches natürlich im einklang mit der rasse stehen sollte.
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Hallo Ironbabe !
Dachte das gilt mittlerweile für alle FCI-Clubs. Ist ja egal, Hunde von denen man die Linien haben will finden einen Weg zur Registrierung und andere eben nicht !
Hallo Neigepearl !
I dont know what lines where imported, but there are sure some dogs with mental problems- shy and agressive . That's why we have to make a mental test with our breeding dogs. This problems are not allone in this breed, they are everywhere. My english is not that good, excuse !
New bloodlines are good for the genpool, but not all dogs are good dogs.
Even worse... I hear there are new people to the breed with no knowledge that are importing into Australia from Europe! More people who don't have any idea about the breed getting them!
It is in Austria the same. Some people buy dogs in Argentina with CZECH bloodline - is this creazy !!! |
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I got a breeding bitch for sale , healthy, good temper and not agressiv or shy, but the FCI-breeders wont get her registered.
Her mother got FCI-pedigree and har father too, but she has not. |
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Hello Akaya Sky
I would like to know why you have concerns about new people coming into the breed. I am from the UK although currently living in Spain and I have kept GSD's for a number of years in the past. I am currently looking at lines within the White Swiss genepool and would be interested to know why you mentioned Czech lines in particular in your post.
Regards
Sue |
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I wrote that someone imported a dog from southamerica with CZECH bloodline. Czechia is our neibour country ! For this bloodline I can go 2 Hours by car !!
I got also a female from there, but she is not the best dog I have from the charakcter. |
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I don't think there is nothing wrong with new breeders coming into the breed, but there is a problem when they don't understand the temperament of working dogs or do anything to make sound breeding choices and also breed for health.
Many of the people importing into Australia are barely even pet owners. Most know nothing about dogs, but just because they have money - they think they are getting something rare and special into Australia.
I am certain most of these people will not even show their dogs or train them... Just breed them and get $$$ because they are different... |
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So are you saying that in general, Czech bloodlines are reknowned for not having the best temperaments??
So what is anyone doing about this?
In the club I belong to in Australia www.wgsdcv.org.au we do temperament testing, like the Dog Mentality Assessment - the one founded by the Swedish Working Dog Club. The other club in Australia is known to have bad temperaments of breeding dogs. A person was bitten by a dog at their show on the weekend and there were many reports of dogs with overly shy or agressive temperaments! It is so bad... |
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In the last few years the breeders from Czechia are going to other countries for new bloodlines for themselves. The problem is, that most of them look still for the beauty, becouse they want show champions.
I have to wirte now in german, because I can't write this in english.
Ich war früher sehr naiv was die mentalität der Züchter angeht. Ich dachte alle sind lieb und nett und sagen einem die Wahrheit. So ist das leider nicht ! Ich habe meine tschechische Hündin gekauft, hatte noch guten Kontakt zur Züchterin und als ich dann mit ihr beim x-ray war. Schock ! HD-frei, ED-3 ! Habe es der Züchterin gesagt, sie meinte ja, verkauf den Hund und sag es nicht ! Nächster Schock ! Seit dem haben wir keinen Kontakt mehr und meine Hündin Kara lebt noch bei uns. Sie ist sehr sensibel, hört sofort zu fressen auf wenn es irgendwelche Umstellungen gibt, wenn besucher kommen braucht sie sicher einen halbe Stunde bis sie sich mal hin traut, wenn ich sie zu einem Hundewandertag mitnehme hat sie nur Stress. Ich habe mit ihr die Begleithundeprüfung 1 gemacht, aber für mehr ist sie nicht geeignet. Sie lässt sich nicht für spiele motivieren. Da war dann noch eine zweite Hündin ( Jaika) die sich nicht vom Rüden hat decken lassen. Beide Hündinnen konnte man nicht zum Ballspielen motivieren. Beide sind nun kastriert und werden nie in die Zucht kommen. Ich weiss das zwei Schwestern von der Jaika nach Australien verkauft wurden, aber ich weiss nicht ob die dort in der Zucht sind.
Da gibt es sicher auch ein paar gute Hunde in den Nachbarländern wie Tschechien, Slowakei, Ungan ...
Bei uns im Club haben wir strenge Richtlineinen was die Zucht anbelangt und wir müssen mindestens 1 Prüfung machen,so wie HD und ED Röngten ,Wesenstest und auch Ausstellungen. |
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Hello to all,
At first not all czech dogs and bloodlines are bad i can know because i have a 1/2 czech bloodline dog ;-)
He's got a good temper and good health (HD A, ED free) also his littermates have good temper and health so he's not the only one.
I think all bloodlines have some dogs who are not healthy or have bad temper, because in the past ('80, '90) the white shepherd breeding in europe was not selecting on health and temper only on the colour white. We still have to deal with this legacy and it can happen with dogs from each country in europe and from every bloodline.
My first white shepherd (born in 1990) was a beautifull big boned dog (69 cm) normal for that days, but his temper was not good. For us he was great and loveble but for strangers he was terrible, shy and agressive at the same time.
Wenn we looked for a second white shepherd whe looked for a breeder who breed on temper and health and not for beauty.
I think the WSSD scene looks only at dogs with titles but don't look good at the dogs in real live, are these dogs realy fantastic at each moment in every situation?
A few weeks ago i was on a show and the dog who became BOB had a bad temper, he was beatifull yess but he showed a lot of fear, a month befor he became BOB, BIG and BIS on a FCI CAC-CACIB show with that same temper.
It's not only now, it was in the past and it will be the same in the future i'm afraid.
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Hi everybody,
Yes Chris, perhaps one of the problems with temper is maybe that judges dont give this particular item the importance it has, which in my opinion is much. In the other hand we have to think that the breed is still quite new and judges may think it's better to establish a certain structure which to work with in the future, just basis.
In my opinion it is the biggest kennels problem, dont want to take them all as one, but these kennels are much more responsible of the future's breed than the small ones. Their dogs usually participate in more shows and it's more often to see them winning shows, of course their pups enter breeding programmes more than others.
My experience is that dogs from smaller kennels have better temper and almost same beauty. The only reason is that these breeders are constantly in touch with the pups, they grow at home, and are capable to select the owner because the pressure of selling is less. Most of the european small kennels control health as much as the biggest. But obviously we are giving champions pedigree much more importance.
Lendinez |
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@chrismart: do you think that there are no dogs which have good temper and health AND are beautiful and have titles?
i think that the combination of both is the secret... having a beautiful, healthy dog with nice temper.
i think that there are too many breeding clubs which do not pay attention to a character test... in germany each breeding dog needs to pass the test. otherwise you can´t breed with him. i know lots of countries, where they do not test at all or where it is up to the breeder, if they want to have their dogs tested or not....
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I think it's important to character test breeding dogs. I have been seeing litters and helping breeders for 10 years now, and whenever the mother has a bad temperament, the pups learn this from their mother.
I once saw a litter of 6 or 7 week old pups all run away scared as soon as I walked into the yard! They were petrified. Most of those pups (except for one or two) - it was a big litter, all were OK because the owners put lots of work into the puppies, but the rest had lots of problems with nerves because the mother was the same.
I would never breed a dog with a bad temperament! Even if it was the most beautiful dog ever! It's too dangerous and also gives the breed a bad reputation. |
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brooke,
you are absolutely right! |
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My opinion on why there is such a 'mixed type' in the breed, is due to the division in the breed!! One country can use this bloodline, another can not.
How can we expect to develop the WSS breed around the WORLD to it's full potential when essentially, each country has a different genepool?
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Yes Alpinarc,
I think those last words are true, certain rules make impossible the breed get to it's full potential, meanwhile
the division between breeders separate the bloodlines ,It happens all the time.These was my first porpose when I started the post. |
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Lendinez, what are breeders to do? It seems there are no winners & the loser is the breed, the dogs.. It is sad that human politics is stunting the growth, future, and health, yes health, of such a beautiful breed.
I must make comment on your post regarding 'height' where you say judges think the breed is getting too tall.
The BBS, like the GSD is a 'medium' breed, too large & it can not function correctly for it's purpose.
In my country, when a new breed is imported to be recognised, it must have a BSE submitted by the importer. BSE = Breed Standard Extension. This is breed standard 347 broken down & each area is described in more detail. This document is created/used purely for judges training & students of the breed, it's a good insight for breeders & judges to learn what the 'ideal' dog should look like as we all know, each person interprets the breed standard differently, so this BSE is supposed to give a clear idea on the expectations of each area in the standard. I.e: height, weight, coat, angles etc.
In the BSE for the WSS, it recommends the MAXIMUM height as the 'IDEAL' height! One would think that the middle of the height range would be considered the ideal, as it is in all other breeds. Yes, our BSE states that 'medium' is in fact UNDER MEDIUM!?? And includes 2 height ranges out of the standard, which puts 'large' as medium. Perhaps the people who wrote this BSE have large dogs & make maximum height as ideal to give an advantage? One can only wonder?
This is from the BSE prepared by importer:
Height (cm) - DOGS
60-62 Small (less desirable) but within Standard
62-64 Under medium but within Standard
65-66 Ideal
66-67 These heights are outside the Standard
67-68 These heights are outside the Standard
'Over sized dogs acceptable, Undersized dogs not acceptable'
.............................................................................................................................
This is how "I" believe it should be! (see below)
Height (cm) - DOGS
60-62 Small
63-64 Medium (IDEAL)
65-66 Large
All the above sizes are correct and acceptable according to the Standard and should not be faulted.
Typical dogs slightly over or under size are acceptable provided proportions & angulations are correct & balanced.
Does anyone agree with me? Do any other countries have an 'Extended Breed Standard' ??
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| never heard of this "extended breed standard" |
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Wow,
You should'nt have shown these BSE, some will cut their dogs legs and others will have to buy them lifters.IT'S A JOKE.
My opinion is similar to yours, anyway the dog should be firstly a harmonious dog whateever it's size is. Here in Europe you can see very big dogs (70) in breeding programmes usually used for beauty contest, but what I tried to say is that though most of the dogs are inside the height of the breed standard they in a 90% go to the higher height when It's should be reasonable to see male dogs with a height of 60, but I'm afraid thats the usual size of a female. And females with a size of 55 are considered too little!!!!
I never heard about extended breed standards, but I know the New zealand WS standard is slightly different to ours because it's more precise.
GOOD NEWS we dont have the same breed standard that's a good place where to start the breeds work from |
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Although i am joining and reading all these posts rather late - i am amazed to see that other countries also have temprament problems. I thought it was only in my country (South Africa) ! One of our "breeders" does breed very pretty dogs, and they win because of their presence and prettiness - but the temprements are SHOCKING !!!!
I have often wondered if the judges don't read the breed standard & why, when they judge do they not take the dog's temprement into consideration when judging the dogs ?!!!!
A dog or puppy should NOT be nervous or shy to the extent of being scared of their own shadow & snapping at the judge, running with their tail between their legs, turning to see what is behind them in case something is going to attack them from behind. When a dog runs with the tail between the legs, have you seen how "rounded / roached" the topline is ? BUT on the stack these dogs look pretty and pleasing to the eye.
Where in our breed standard does it call for a "pretty" or "nobleness & elegance" ?
It's very sad to see breeders like this - how they are ruining our breed. and the temprement on the basis of just breeding pretty dogs.
I have never owned nor bred a nervous dog ! All my puppies are brought up with enough self confidence that even a stranger can handle any of my dogs in the ring should it be necessary.
There should be a judges education programme that makes them aware of these temprement problems so the dogs can be eliminated from the breeding programme and NOT made up into champions, so the owners can export the progeny with the same temprement problems.
This is not based on "sour grapes" as my kennel has done exceptionally well with winnings over many years. But as a concerned breeder for the future temprement of our dogs. |
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As a breeder myself I totally understand Zytron's frustration. You breed a beautiful dog, but sometimes it's the owners who "baby" them, do not socialise or train them and you end up having a dog that has separation anxiety, aggression issues or too shy or reactive. There is a genetic component, but every single bad case I have seen, the temperament has been the result of the owners lack of knowledge in dog behaviour, training and socialisation.
Sometimes you get puppy buyers who promise to do all the right things and the dog is placed in a new environment and falls to pieces. I very strongly tell people who buy my puppies the important of correct training, socialisation and behaviour... I also offer free personal training for new owners, so they do not create problems for the dog!
There are breeders in every breed, not just the whites, who just breed "pretty" dogs with no regard for health or temperament. Some don't even know what the correct structure is supposed to be!
I like to think I can breed for ALL these things at once; health, temperament, trainability and conformation and looks! I make no sacrifices in my breeding program... Investigate the pedigrees closely in relation to health and do your very best to know the breed before touching it and screwing it up, like so many people do! |
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