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Classified: Crusader kennels--Planned newf litter
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Is this a normal puppy guarantee? (40 replies)
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I am just looking and hopefully be ready to buy a nice GS puppy so I have been looking and asking questions. I came across this breeder that has the following in his puppy contract. It does not sound right to me so let me know what you all think.
The puppy will be free of crippling canine genetic hip dysplasia for the first year of life. ( Genetic crippling canine hip dysplasia is present within the first 12 months of age and can be seen by X-rays)
The Seller guarantees that the puppy will certify with OFA at no sooner than 24 months of age as excellent, good or fair. This guarantee is binding only if preliminary hip x-rays were done on the puppy as directed in section 2 of this contract.
I thought it was best to wait til 2 years of age?
Also, what about the part to certify as excellent, good or fair. Fair? Isn't that rather a low score. I don't believe you can jog with a dog like that. I may be wrong.
What do you all think?
Mike |
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Mike, the key word here is "crippling"; meaning the movement of the dog is noticeably affected during its first year of life. Bear in mild that a dog can have even a moderate level of hip dysplasie and never show any of the clinical signs of the defect for the entirety of his life. That does not mean that he is fit for breeding!
But I also see where the breeder guarantees that the dog will pass O.F.A. as long as the preliminary evaluation was done. That is a normal requirement, in my opinion. So I sense just a bit of a paradox here.
I think I see it this way - the breeder is covering himself for the first year of the dog's life, when even moderate hip dysplasie may or may not show clinical signs of its presence. If the dog fails the O.F.A. preliminary evaluation during the latter part of his first year of life, then the breeder is perhaps still protected unless the dog exhibits clinical signs of crippling - that is the way that I see it. You did not include the remaining language concerning when this preliminary evaluation must occur, and I think the timing of it is very important here.
So to me, that makes the part of the guarantee about the dog obtaining a O.F.A. preliminary evaluation and passing O.F.A. requirements at twenty-four (24) months of age a very different issue. If the dog fails his preliminary evaluation, he probably will not pass his final evaluation. When does the contract say this preliminary evaluation must be done? I think that is the key to the validity of this contract. What would I do? I would find a breeder whose contract was more simple and clear. No one can guarantee that a puppy will not develop hip dysplasie - we can only guarantee what we will do if this happens.
And yes, it is best to wait until the dog is two (2) years of age to make the evaluation as by that time the bones are fully ossified and have grown to the size they will maintain. That also gives sufficient time to determine if the joint has too much laxity and allows it to become damaged. I know the S.V. offers it final evaluation just past twelve (12) months of age. I have never agreed with this idea, but they are the S.V. and that is their rule.
The O.F.A. finding of "fair" is a passing score, and should not deter one from acquiring such a dog. I guess the question is "are the hips barely fair, or are they almost good?" There is not a great deal of variance within this grade. This dog should be able to live a lifetime with a level of activity equal to what one would place on a dog with O.F.A. "excellent". If this is a concern, try to determine how the littermates have scored, as that is more important than the dog himself provided everyone was examined.
Best Regards,
Bob-O |
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| What do you feel is wrong with it? I don't know what breeder would warranty Good or better. |
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Bob-O, I sent you a private message with this website. I just did not want to offend anyone and have someone accuse me
of slandering them just because I ask questions.
Mike |
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IMO........
I wouldn't buy with less then this a guarentee less then this.........
B. Health
The Breeder warrants the dog has been examined by a veterinarian and to be in excellent health and free from parasites at the time of purchase/pickup, but has not made and does not now make any further warranties as to the puppy’s condition after pickup. It is the Buyers responsibility to prevent illness and injury by providing necessary booster vaccinations, veterinary care, nutrition, fresh water, shelter and supervision.
Further, the Breeder warrants that both the sire and dam's hips have been x-rayed and evaluated by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) or SV or any other country’s respected Orthopedic Foundation.
It is recommended by the Breeder that the Buyer take the puppy to a Veterinarian of his/her choice and gives three days in which to do so. If, within those three days, a veterinarian finds the puppy to be unsound, unhealthy, or possessing a serious genetic defect, a statement in writing must be provided by that veterinarian documenting said condition for Breeders’ veterinarian to review. Upon confirmation from Breeders’ vet of said condition, Buyer may return the puppy, registration and all of his/her effects to the Breeder and receive a full, immediate refund of the purchase price. All precautions have been made to insure that this puppy is in excellent health at the time of purchase including vaccinations at 8 weeks of age and a final health check has been made by Breeders veterinarian and a health certificate is included in your new puppy packet.
Additionally, male dogs have been checked and verification has been made that both testicles have descended at the time of pickup. Accidents can happen with new puppy dogs, however, this contract does not cover testicle trauma after the puppy goes to his new home. This puppy is guaranteed until the age of one year against any serious genetic health problem, and also guaranteed to pass OFA hip / elbow certification through the age of 30 months (2 ½ years). If a puppy is thought to have a genetic defect regarding its hips or elbows, hip and/or elbow x-rays must be taken per OFA recommendations and submitted to The Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA). Puppy's microchip number must be recorded on the x-rays.
Copies of OFA findings must be submitted to the seller/breeder. Defects must be proven to be genetic and not caused by environmental factors or mishandling by the buyer. Any other serious genetic problem needs to be diagnosed by the Buyers’ veterinarian and reports sent to the Seller/Breeder. The Breeder will present the veterinarian reports to her veterinarian for review to confirm whether the defect is genetic in nature.
If puppy does not pass OFA for hip / elbow certification, or has a confirmed genetic defect, Buyer may return the animal to the seller and receive another puppy of similar quality when available at no cost. Or buyer must show proof that puppy is spayed or neutered via a vet certificate (Buyer keeps his/her dog) and may obtain a replacement puppy, when available, from seller/breeder at 50% off of the original selling price.
Buyer is responsible for transportation costs on any replacement puppy.
Breeding the dog or bitch voids any guarantee.
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darylehret,
I really don't know. I did not know that fair would actually pass OFA. That is why I am asking questions.
thanks, |
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darylehret,
You said something about not knowing any breeder that would guarantee good or better. Not sure but, I thought I saw a few that did if you are buying their best. Like for achieving Working Titles. Again, I may be wrong.
Thanks,
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| fair is not dysplastic - borderline could be mild is most definately dysplastic. |
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SitasMom,
Oh boy, now you got my attention at a different direction. You said, "This puppy is guaranteed until the age of one year against any serious genetic health problem". That sounds serious. Genetic health problems? Is this something that can be diagnosed at an early age?
By the way, how are your puppies? Again, they sure look nice, especially that dark sable one that was next to the black one. Very nice... |
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Back to the hip issue. Would a "fair" rating be of concern if you plan on jogging lets say 1/2 mile or so? I don't mean to run full steam. I am 56 and would like to have a partner jog/walk with me for my health as well as the dog.
I would be wanting to purchase a 4 or 5 month puppy. Would that be a good choice for jog/walk or should I wait til the puppy is older and if so at what age?
Thanks, |
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Better than Fair should be desireable, but serves as a reasonable bottom threshold for breeding standards, provided there are other exceptional assets to produce upon. In the overall GSD breed, roughly 20% OFA results are Dysplastic, 4.5% Excellent, and the remainder Good or Fair.
Of the parents used to breed with in an all-breed study, 15% are Excellent, 66% Good, 15% Fair. Why 4% of dogs employed in breeding are Dysplastic, I couldn't say, but probably is part to blame why 20% HD in the GSD hasn't hardly improved since prior to the 1980's. Although, with the majority of breeders gravitating toward using Good, this has however helped Excellent ratings climb (somewhat) in the last few decades. |
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mikecast1 - dark sable, nest to the black is a Eurosport puppy - I help Taunya with advertising, customer support and sales - this gives Taunya more time to do what she loves to do - train young dogs.......
Fair is passing, borderline and mild are not considered passing as far as the OFA is concerned.
I have a mild hd dog that is happy to jog a mile a day, and run and play fetch non-stop for the rest of the day. She is still young, hope she holds out. She also swims laps in our pool. Just watching her is exhausting! A dog in our club graded as good is crippled.
There are many possible Dieseases, many show up before one year of age........Many are not "serious", some are. Some show up quickly some don't. The vast majority of these are very, very rare and most do not show up in GSD's. The question is "what is serious".
Heritable Diseases of Dogs
Achalasia, Esophageal
Achondroplasia
Cone Degeneration, Achromatopsia
Acrochordonous Plaque
Acromegaly
Acute posterior paresis
Adrenal Cortical Atrophy
Congenital Afibrinogenemia (Factor I Deficiency)
Alexander disease
Aphakia
Alloimmune hemolytic Anemia of the Newborn
Alloxan diabetes
Alpha-1 Antitrypsin Deficiency
Alopecia
AA Amyloidosis (Inflammatory)
Amyloidosis
Anemia (Congenital Hypoplastic)
Anhidrotic Ectodermal Dysplasia (X-linked Ectodermal Dysplasia, XHED)
Ankylosing Spondylitis (Ossifying Spondylitis)
Arnold-Chiari Malformation (Syringomyelia)
Anodontia
Black Hair Follicular Dysplasia
Bleeding disorder
Blood group system
Blood group system C
Blood group system D
Blood group system Rh
Blood group system Tr
Brachycephalic airway obstruction syndrome
Brachydactyly
Brachygnathia
Budd-chiari syndrome
Bullous pemphigoid
C3 deficiency
Calcification of intervertebral discs
Calcinosis circumscripta
Cardiomyopathy
Dilated Cardiomyopathy (CDM)
Cardiomyopathy, hypertrophic
Cardiovascular malformations
Carpal subluxation
Cataract
Cauda equina syndrome
Central Core Myopathy
Cerebellar Abiotrophy
Cerebellar cortical atrophy
Cerebellar degeneration
Cerebellar hypoplasia
Cerebellar Purkinje Cell Degeneration
Chronic valvular disease
Cleft alveolus and lip
Cleft lip
Cleft palate
Gluten-Sensitive Enteropathy (GSE)
Collie eye anomaly
Coloboma
Comedo syndrome
Cone rod dystrophy 1
Conotruncal heart malformations
Cor Triatriatum Dexter
Corneal Dermoid
Cornification Disorders
Corneal Dystrophy
Coxofemoral dysplasia
Coxofemoral luxation
Craniomandibular osteopathy
Cranioschisis
Cricopharyngeal Dysfunction
Cryptorchidism
Cushing's Disease (Hyperadrenocorticism)
Cystic bone lesions
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mikecast1
rule of thumb - 5 minutes jogging MAX for ever month of age.......but I'm much more conservative...2.5 minutes per month of age...I'd much rather take it easy just in case......I can wait a few extra months to ensure the health of a puppy.. |
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SitasMom, Wow! That is scarey.
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Adding better than fair to my list.
2.5 minutes to every month sounds good to me.
Thanks all,
Mike |
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| Looks like my Vet will have his hands full. |
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vet with hands full, why?
just like having children, a half million things COULD go wrong, but more often then not........the kids grows up perfectly healthy......
Here's a shorter list of the most common issues........
http://www.angesgardiens.ca/ANG/Health.htm
Health disorders sometimes encountered in German Shepherds:
Hip Dysplasia (HD).
Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency (EPI)
Inter vertebral Disc Disease
Osteochondrosis Dissecans (OCD)
Panosteitis - .
Elbow Dysplasia- .
Degenerative Myelopathy -
Hemophilia A -
Pancreatitis-
Diabetes Mellitus -.
Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) -
Sub-Aortic Stenosis (SAS) -.
Epilepsy -
Von Willebrand's Disease (vWD)-
Bilateral Cataracts -
Cherry Eye-
Cryptorchidism-
Bloat-
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Mike,
The contract sounds deceptive, most are.
They are designed to protect the seller, not the buyer, and most are not worth the paper they are written on.
Look at who you are buying from and what you are buying, the contract means nothing.
Avoid high prices and extraordinary claims, just look for sound stock from reputable breeders.
Moons.
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If you don't feel comfortable with the seller as a person, the contract means nothing. Attorney fees and court filings are generally more then the price of the puppy. Be damn sure you feel you can trust the breeder without having to test the validity of the contract in a court room.
just my thoughts, mahon
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My experience is, buyers tend to be more deceptive than breeders. Protecting both parties is a plus if a contract is important to you, but go with your comfort level in trust of the breeder, regardless of any/no contract. Meaning, you should learn more about the breeder by other avenues before making your final judgement. |
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http://www.offa.org/hipguide.html
"What can breeders do?
Hip dysplasia appears to be perpetuated by breeder imposed breeding practices, but when breeders and their breed clubs recognize HD as a problem and establish reduction of HD as a priority, improvement of the hip status can be accomplished without jeopardizing other desirable traits. Prospective buyers should check pedigrees and/or verify health issues with the breeder. If suitable documentation is not available, assume the worst until proven otherwise.
Do not ignore the dog with a fair hip evaluation. The dog is still within normal limits. For example; a dog with fair hips but with a strong hip background and over 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a good breeding prospect. A dog with excellent hips, but with a weak family background and less than 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a poor breeding prospect.
OFA's Recommended Breeding Principals
Breed normals to normals
Breed normals with normal ancestry
Breed normals from litters (brothers/sisters) with a low incidence of HD
Select a sire that produces a low incidence of HD
Replace dogs with dogs that are better than the breed average"
http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html
"Categories are:
Normal (Excellent, Good, Fair)
Borderline
Dysplastic (Mild, Moderate, Severe) "
Borderline isn't passing or failing but kind of in the middle......."Most dogs with this grade (over 50%) show no change in hip conformation over time and receive a normal hip rating; usually a fair hip phenotype."
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| Just because parents have good hips dose not mean they will produce this in their puppies. heavy line breeding is what would worry me more. Most dogs that I seen that have fair rated hips and no line breeding in first 5 generation will not produce bad hips. Bad hips have a lot to do with genetics. Another thing to take under consideration is how was the dog worked from an early age, for example I work my dogs hard from puppy hood, it's normal for me to take a puppy about 14 weeks old for walks, 5 miles a day, so my dogs might have worst hips than someone that keeps his in crate for first year. Environment, nutrition and genetics is what crates bad hips, not parents hips rating. I am not going to try to say don't pay attention to parents hips because that would be silly but don't walk away only because one parent might have fair (fair is still passing), especially if they have a record of producing good hips. Keep in mind that guarantee is only as good as the man behind it. And for me is worth as much as the paper that is written on. Do you homework, rather than count on any guarantees. I am not saying that there is no honest breeders I will just say that people are people, and their word is only their word at best. |
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Mike, you should feel comfortable with the breeder, the pups he/she has, and comfortable asking the breeder with TONS of questions. If the breeder doesn't answer your questions, then walk away. If you don't like the contract walk away. As for jogging with the pup I do agree with SitasMom. You have to be careful as the puppy is still growing and can easily be injured on long jogs, walks, etc. I also do agree that some buyers can be very deceptive as well as breeders. This is 1 HUGE reason I still have my 2 boy's from my litter. Am I too picky?? probably, but I want the best home/family for my pups, and that is all that matters to me, not how much money someone has. So PLEASE be careful when looking for your perfect puppy. Cross your "I's" and dot those "T's" :-)
Kel
www.boeselagerkennel.com |
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| Looks like a normal puppy contract to me which 99% of the breeders in the states are offering. Btw, Fair is still passing and means no signs of hip dysplasia. |
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I would like to 'thank" everyone who replied. I have been reading and re-reading everyones reply. so much information and I feel much better.
I understand the breeder has to protect him or her self. Also that the guarantee is really only worth the paper it is on and, I should carefully search and ask allot of questions and narrow my search to those breeders that I feel are answering my question without beating around the bush so to say.
And then there is the buyer also.....some are so misinformed and think they know what they want, think they know what they are doing, they basiclly think too much as I was doing. I guess I go frustrated or scared on that part of HD.
Thanks all,
Mike |
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| HD is not everything, you can miss on some good dogs by fixating on one aspect. Watch out for sweet talkers, breeders that answer all you question are not always best choice, look for the quality of info they provide, older more experience breeders will expect that you did your homework before you came to them, they are not there to educate you. Many breeders are kennel blind which is even bigger issue. You need to be comfortable with the decision you going to make. See the progeny best thing you can do for yourself, I don't care how much the breeders is pricing his breeding if I can't see the progeny than his word is once again just his word. Look for breeders that train their own dogs, they don't have to train them in SCH, or any other sport but actively train in something, those are the kind of breeders that tend to not breed something that they would not want to own themselves. See if the breeders is keeping anything back, most breeders that keep few dogs are breeding not just to produce another litter and make money but to improve their program, these are the breeders that breed for quality, I would watch out for claims I am a hobbits breeder, that is just a claim, and dose not mean anything, actually many times it might mean that they don't know what they doing and breed just to breed. Look for breeders that been doing it for a while, look for breeders that are not close minded (trust me there are more of them than you think). Deal with breeders that are proud of their program, this is easy to spot. Buy dog for repeat breeding this is the best thing ever, because you know already what the pair produced. If you see breeder that dose repeat breeding, it means many times success, and most important it would be possible to verify their claim if you would be able to see the progeny. Stay away from breeder that claims that their dog are "the best" "total dogs" or perfect dogs, there is no such thing! Every dog got it's issue every dog got it's limitation. Breeder that dose not know his dogs issues and limitation is breeder that dose not know what he is breeding. Trust in your gut feeling if you don't feel right about something walk away. You will many times have to go through 10 bad breeders to find one right for you. But it's not the journey that matters but the final destination. Don't focus on people that breed SCH dogs and think that SCH is holly grail, it's not, and it might shows their are close minded. Watch out for people that claim their dog will protect you no matter what, most dogs wont, you train a dog to protect you he is not pretrain or born with that skill. When breeder say he has nice quality dog that will make perfect pet watch out he might just try to move leftovers. The breeder should feel confident about all his dogs, including the left overs. There is no such thing like pet dog, or sport dogs these dogs are created through training, and our expectations (sure it has to be genetically there to begin but my believe any well bred dog should have ability to be both). They are not born to be one or the other. I have a dog that has supper drives, and 100% confident that excels in SCH training and she is a perfect pet at the same time. I have a dog that been my wife pet for 3 years and now I am starting to working on her drives and I feel she can easily go SCHI, so one dose not exclude the other. |
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snajper69, Thanks for all that info. Especially, " Buy dog for repeat breeding this is the best thing ever, because you know already what the pair produced and When breeder says he has nice quality dog that will make perfect pet watch out he might just try to move leftovers".
What the dog has produced! #1 on my list. I can use this website to somewhat research the bloodline. If I find something I like, I will post it to see what others think. I guess that would be ok to do?
Thanks, |
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I say if the breeder has issue with your research than he has something to hide, or even worst his head stuck you know where.
You should ask as many questions as you can there is a lot of good people on here, that will help out. |
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If HD is really making you worry, get a dog that's already been prelim'ed.....say 9 months or even a year,
The innitial cost is higher, but you can save a bunch in normal vet bills, feed and vitimines.......
Just a thought. |
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Not a bad idea SitasMom! What price range would I be looking at? I want working. I just like the way they look. The American lines is out of the question. Too many problems! German Showlines, I have one and not what I expected.
I have had several GS in my life and all have been pretty good. Intelligent, easy to train, eager to learn and nice looking. I may just have the "one bad apple". Or maybe I don't understand him. He is pretty smart in his own way but just hard headed sometimes. Actually, now that he is 3 years old, he is much better. Now nice looking, he is not. Poor guys rear elbows so to say, touch each other about 95% of the time when he stands and then his rear quarters sway back and forth as he is not balanced. When I take him for a walk/run, his rear feet drag. You can hear his claws touching the pavement. Poor guy! Free manicure I guess.
Now his Hip.....I don't know. Since I have been unemployed since March........no mula. Even before that, I had been unemployed for a few months also. I am hopeing things will get better. One way or another.
The only good thing is I know there are about a Million people out there who have it worse. Well, not good exactly a good thing. |
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From my expereince helping with sales and customer support for EursprotK9
puppies at 8 weeks are 1,500, and a 9 month old puppy, Kola z Eurosprotu, for example, that has gone through their puppy school and has had hips and elbows prelimed is 3,500. Their puppy school is asewome., it really gives the puppies a great foundation and sets them up for a winning future.
IMO EurosportK9 has an excellent reputation ....
I'm sure that similar puppies can be found for more and for less.......By purchasing an older puppy you are takeing some of the chance out of the mix. I'm not much of a gambler and will most likely never buy another puppy......I've grown to prefer older dogs.
The cost of purchasing a puppy, feeding, vet bills, shots, hip x-rays, toys and the like vs an older dog.......is a wash. |
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mikecast1,
Eurosport is not the only one who has great dogs. Look here in the states and try Mike Diehl at http://www.diehlspolicek9training.com/ or Nate Harves at http://www.sportwaffenk9.com/ . Mike works with Eurosport, but also has his own breeding program. Both are very upstanding and reliable and very experianced in what they are doing, unlike SitasMom (not experianced) who recently became a vendor for Eurosport it seems. Would not surprise me if she made a buck or two of her effort to advertise for them.
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How about this hip guarantee???
I would never consider buying a dog with this kind of guarantee.
What I wonder with this type guarantee is, WHY do so many breeders require that in order for your guarantee to be honored, YOU MUST RETURN THE PUP, (actually a dog by the time a year rolls around)?
What is the breeder going to do with a dysplastic dog that is returned? Keep it???Put it to sleep, What? If someone is willing to keep and care for the dog, WHY NOT LET THEM KEEP IT?, AND, if they do choose to keep it, WHY only refund/replace HALF.
Most people are attached to their dog after having it for a year(at least I would hope they were, if not I would feel I let that dog go to the wrong home), and I assume a lot of people would rather keep their dog and not redeem under the contract. I guess that is probably what the breeder is hoping for.
If the pup you sell turns out dysplastic, WHY NOT JUST REPLACE THE PUP, and Let the buyer keep their original dog, IF it's NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, but the love of the breed.
Yeah, require proof of spay/neuter...BUT just give them a replacement. That's what I would do.
X-ray of the pups hips/elbows, showing proper positioning, and meeting OFA standards, must be submitted to OFA for evaluation at the owners expense, prior to one of age. If in OFA' s evaluation, the pup shows evidence of Hip/Elbow dysplasia, the buyer can choose from one the following options:
Return the pup, and receive a replacement pup from the next available litter, not necessarily of the same breeding
Keep the pup, and receive 1/2 off the purchase price of a replacement pup. Breeder requires proof of spay or neuter of the dysplastic pup before honoring guarantee.
Keep the pup, and receive 1/2 of the original purchase price back. |
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vvv79 "I'm sure that similar puppies can be found for more and for less......I never said that Eurosport is the only place to purchase........people from our club have Eurosport dogs and I have 2 of them, we are all very happy customers.
"unlike SitasMom (not experianced) who recently became a vendor for Eurosport it seems"..
I'm breeding or matching puppies with owners, I'm not doing the training, I'm just finding buyers...and communicating.......What is the issue with working for Eurosport? When did advertising and communicating require so much experience? It is a job.
Mike Diehl is doing a great job with Erri, 97,97,95 - won the national champianship in davenport
The "prior to one year" is the caveat on this one......for sure. |
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vvv79:
No need to knock Sitasmom for making a buck... Jeysalim pmed me last night from Indonesia and he is using a person here in the USA who is vendoring Jinopo dogs and making a hefty 700.00 above the puppy price. If he bought the dog from Jinopo himself direct and getting the same guarantee that Mikecast just showed up with on post here...He could have bought the pup for $900.00 plus shipping but instead is paying $1,600.00 plus shipping,,so you want to throw stones, nasty incinutendos , make it to anyone brokering a dog. Do you work for free?? Nothing wrong with selling dogs for someone else. The dogs sell themselves almost. Eurosports reputation is set and Taunya is right here in Texas if Sitasmom needs her..bug off of criticism.
No one works for free...and in this business , anyone who vendors a dog for a breeder makes money.
Just my opinion
YR |
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I would not go around and knock Erusport around, neither any one that try to make a buck as long as it dose it in legit way. Eurosport track record speaks of value. Never heard any one complaining about them, they are very active in a dog world and always pelasure to talk to. Can you buy dogs for less? Surre you can, you can get it even for free if you look around. They are not forcing any dogs on any one. It's up to buyer to make educated decision. I wish every breeder could be as professional as Eurosport, I think the breed would benefit from it. And this comes from a person that would most likely never buy a dog from Eurosport, but it has nothng to do with them, it's just personal choice. |
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| vvv79 play nice with other kids ;) i don't think Nate or Mike could care less of the way eurosport chooses to advertise their dogs, they are both highly successful people and I don't think they have a problem moving dogs they breed ;). |
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Been busy all day running errands here and there and some calls so.
To all: I value certain peoples advice and or comments. One such person is SitasMom. I don't know her but, I do feel she is an honest person and not just throwing words to me or anyone else to make a buck.
Respect...please.
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LOL,
Your in it deep now mikecast1,
I think you still have much to learn,
Best of luck with that.
Moons. |
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"who is vendoring Jinopo dogs and making a hefty 700.00 above the puppy price"
for real?!?
I sold myself way short!
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