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Classified: FEMALE ENGLISH BULLDOG PUPPY
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Steve1, I am with you on the WUSV Como performance now (57 replies)
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After watching and analyzing the video of Ronny Berghe and his dog's performance at this year's WUSV again - Steve was right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5SNZdRH9qI
It was the helper's fault with Como. The guy gave him his triceps, looks like,not the bite bar. Poor dog grabbed what he could, tried tomake the best of it and held onto it.
The video's sound clearlycaptures the crowdand their reactions.
The long biehelper also drove the dog very hard with some unnecessary swinging, and again, the dog adjusted and did what he could - on his own. This is a very good dog, actualy GREAT dog, no question.
Without the helper's mistakes, this should have been a 96 or 97 performance, the dog showsan amazing ability to focusonthe task at hand, analyze situation and adapt on his own.
One of the better "clear headed" dogs I have seen lately too.
This dog is not going anywhere from competing in WUSV for the next 3 years at least, for sure. And he is only going to get better.
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Not to start a huge arguement but i dont see how you can blame the helper. He did the same for all the dogs. So why did others make the grip and not this dog? The problem i see is in the set up of the dogs.. The dogs that got the elbow were being a bit lazy. they had to come around on the helper to take that grip most just went for the quickest route. Just a choice and i am sure next year he will have that problem fixed.
Ceddyg |
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No huge argument here, no problems. In my opinion it was the helper.
Yes, he gave the shitty sleeve presentation to all dogs -true. He gave the shitty presentation to this one too.
But, at precisely 1 minute and 55 seconds in the video,after the shitty presentation of the sleeve and the dog grabbing what he could, he then almoststops, with the dog dangling and then spins around some, thus giving more torque and the dog falls off understandably, then the dog immediately recovers to yet another shitty sleeve presentation.
I think it was the helper. This is a good dog.
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Como is definately a top top dog. The helper did that to keep his balance and not fall. So if he was shitty with every dog why did some get good bites and some missed?
ceddyg |
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I already answered you that, I believe - because he stopped and spun around.
I do not know why some dogs missed and some did not, and I cannot speculate, although, yes, he was pretty consistently shitty with all of them, not WUSV level helper by any stretch of imagination.
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| I have to say that the decoy seemed a bit out of control. I didnt look to me as if he was smooth or controled in his body so i cant imagine him doing that same thing with every dog. I also just watched the same decoy work Eric vom sportpark and he did not give the same presentation that he gave como nor did he look as reckless in his body. check it out for yourself. |
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| After watching the videos of the back half i dont like either decoy. I will agree that the set up for the escape was messing up a lot of dogs. The decoy for the courage test bails on every dog but at least it was consistent. I was taught as a decoy to go straight to the dog not to veer off as the dog comes down the field. But what do i know im not at the world championship. |
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Yes, I agree, I mean, come on... Como wasliterally ridingon the guy's back, like, piggy back style.Yes, the back half decoy consistently bailed to the left on every dog.
Maybe they were instructed to do everything that way, I have no clue.
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Adi
Thank you you are the only one to agree with me,I am not going to get into any slanging match with the Guys on here again over it The event has ended and the result stands,
But i see enough different helpers during the course of a year working to know what i am talking about,
Regards what most of Sch Competitions you Guys see only you know but i attend at least 20 a year when i see someone who basically is not strong enough for some Dogs, plus his technique had much to be desired as well.
But then looking at the Videos of some of the Obed Phases,
Adi you get the chance take a look at Comos Obed then take a look at the Dog who won the Competition Obed Phase and tell me what you see, PM if you like so it does not cause hassle on here
As Adi says the dog is only 3 years old, he has the world within his grasp and i bet he will do it before he retires,
as regards Comos Score i can tell you this there is no sour Grapes with me I have been in many sports in my life and at the Top of them to boot and you do not get there by being petty and not being a good sportsman. We know a Judge can make a bad decision, they can miss a dog doing something like moving its feet when on a stand they only have one pair of eyes, But the thing is this when you can see that the Dog is not entirely at fault the points should be adjusted accordingly but given like sweeties, and i am not just talking about Como in this instance many dogs were hard done by
I am not going to keep on with this thread i reply because my name is on the heading, Let us see what happens next year in Spain, i am going to try and save up to go along with the Belgian Team,a once in a life time experience it will be for me and at my age probably the only chance, seeing it is cheap to get to Spain from Belgium
Steve1 |
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To bad we can't have instant replay.....then we could change all the scores! |
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I have to agree with Steve1 on this. Of course hindsight is always 20/20, but the handler should have gave the dog a better position on the down for escape. the bad escape threw the dog off for the rest of the trial. But that's the way it goes at the big boy trials.
The dog is very young to be at the worlds so given he has a few more years to get it right and fully mature, yea I think he will get it right. I can't wait for Sevilla, we got a pretty good sized group going.
Best Regards,
Dennis Johnson
www.johnsonhaus.com |
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| very fast and strong helper ,the dogs should run faster and know how to target |
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| I can't belive how bad the decoy work is at this level of cometition.It does not matter how good dog your dog is a bad decoy can make it look like shit.Have a nice one. |
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| seems like we'll have plenty of people willing to go to helper tryouts now.....NOT! A few of you should try your hand at helper work. Maybe the critcism would subsided...but, I don't think so! |
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there has to be a happy medium somewhere between giving the dog a bite and preventing good grip. i understand that the helper is working for the judge in a trial situation. i understand that it is his job to test fairly each of the dogs so that the judge can rate them. but when the dogs are at risk of injury, someone needs to stand up in their defense. i was furious when i saw the videos of wusv 2009. on the escape, every one of those dogs risked broken teeth. they had no choice; nothing to grip but the elbow of the sleeve. poor grip. likewise, i was furious at the wusv 2008 front half helper when he drove the dogs so low he was literally driving them into the ground. big risk for injury. marcus did back half helper work at the 2009 usca national and i did not see any of this sort of driving at that event. i wondered if someone had said something to him about it. i am all for testing the dogs properly. if a dog deserves to be run off the field, then so be it. i am not in favor of testing a dog in such a way that he can be injured. in this sport, the dogs are naturally at risk, but anything that adds to that risk is unacceptable.
pjp |
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Judron55
One of the posters above Hunguy is a certified Helper i believe, For myself i think i am too old to put on the suit now, although i have tried it at the grand age of 68 and that was a year ago and i handled the dog okay, but to really take it up serious would be stupid
However we have your expertise to put us all to rights, For no matter what we see or how often we see different helpers and i would hazard a guess i see more throughout the year than you do in that respect we still to you know nothing and our opinion is wrong
I work along regular with some of the best Helpers in Belgium and they do know what they are doing, One thing i will say regards the Videos i have seen of the USA Helpers compared to the Belgian and Dutch ones you work a lot different to ours
I have yet to see on a video when a helper is working with a green young dog or Pup do what the helpers do over here, and i do look for such videos on the web,
To me it tells a lot about a young Pup or young Dog a simple thing but means a lot
I will not say what it is because you i take being a helper should know all about it for all the very best do it over here as a matter of course in the training session
Steve1 |
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| hmmm, so I should be understanding to a helper, that gets paid to do the helper work (it dose not matter how much, if he takes a 300 for a trail or 1 dollar), and calls himself a professional helper? Shit if you a pro you a pro not a joke. You do that to one of my dogs and I am knocking your teeth out, I don't care how good of helper you think you are, you have a responsibility to the dogs and it's owners they untruest their their dogs health with you, show some respect and do your job right. Shit I swear in last few months I seen so many bad helpers is not even funny and they all are a schutzhund helpers. No excuse. |
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| hmmm, so I should be understanding to a helper, that gets paid to do the helper work (it dose not matter how much, if he takes a 300 for a trail or 1 dollar), and calls himself a professional helper? Shit if you a pro you a pro not a joke. You do that to one of my dogs and I am knocking your teeth out, I don't care how good of helper you think you are, you have a responsibility to the dogs and it's owners they untruest their their dogs health with you, show some respect and do your job right. Shit I swear in last few months I seen so many bad helpers is not even funny and they all are a schutzhund helpers. No excuse. |
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| Judron55 most professional trainers, helpers would not let just any one work their dog especially if they do shitty job, and they are very quick to judge, so how come you standing in a defense of someone that is doing poor job? hmmmmm |
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| When I saw video of helper work on Wusv 2008 I couldn't believe that some of the competiotrs with some of the top dogs didn't went bolistic on him. It was pathetic. Be proud of your work or don't do it at all. Let someone else do it than. |
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Presenting a sleeve to the dog in a wrong way is nothing more than that.It has nothing to do with testing the dog's nerves or anything.Bad positioning of the sleeve what this was all about.
A dog is taught this excersize over and over to get it right, to bite the sleeve in certain way a sleeve is held in certain way.If you change the sleeve of position on the dog suddenly is the dog expected to figure this out,because i can tell you there is no one who teaches this to a dog on any shutzhund training feild in any country.
Presenting the sleeve wrong is presenting the sleeve wrong and that is all there is to it. A nd you do not have to be a decoy to know this but you do have to have some knowledge.Have a nice one. |
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Steve1....no disrespect to you or the other excellent helpers in the world. I was trained by some top Belgium helpers. I learned how to work puppies from Belgium and German helpers plus some excellent US helpers. I like alot of the techniques but please don't make such general statements about US helper work. You haven't seen enough to make a judgement...though you have a right to. I don't mind saying that I'm good at what I do.
I never said anyone was wrong...and everyone is entitled to there opinion...as I am:-) You believe what you want to believe...for me, I sure ain't looking for great Belgium helper work video on youtube:-)
ron |
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| best dogs had no problem ! no one whants to know thase ,only say the helper suks , the only reason the dogs dont get the bite bicouse they slow , lets change the rulls and have a wolking escape |
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Presenting the sleeve wrong is presenting the sleeve wrong and that is all there is to it. A nd you do not have to be a decoy to know this but you do have to have some knowledge.
poor dog got a bad sleeve presentation.....probably the first time that ever happened to any of those well trained dogs....and in a trial no less. Bad grips call for regripping.....any good dog knows that along with his knowledgable handler! Have a nice day! |
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most professional trainers, helpers would not let just any one work their dog especially if they do shitty job, and they are very quick to judge, so how come you standing in a defense of someone that is doing poor job? hmmmmm
If it was such a BIG problem than why wasn't the helper removed from competition. Why didn't the competitors complain to have him removed? If the work was sooo shitty....not saying it was the best! It seems to me the spectators had more of a problem than the handlers or dogs! Have a wonderful day! |
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poor dog got a bad sleeve presentation.....probably the first time that ever happened to any of those well trained dogs....and in a trial no less. Bad grips call for regripping.....any good dog knows that along with his knowledgable handler! Have a nice day!
Where are you going with this? i do not get this.
If you present the sleeve wrong way to a dog how is this dog supposed to bit the sleeve properly.
Please bring me the best dog in the world and let me give a bite to this dog and i wll see how he bites it when i present it in a wrong positition.we will settle this in matter of seconds. Have a nice one. |
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Come on HELD......there were how many dogs trialing...did any of them get a good bite? All had bad sleeve presentation?
Are you saying all sleeve presentations in a trial are correct? All sleeve presentation in training is correct. NOPE afraid not!
ltr
ron |
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| I am only talking about one dog and do you know who that dog is,if you do not then this shit is going over your head and i can not help you there.Have a nice one. |
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Judron55
I never asked you to look at videos of Belgian Helpers
I said i had watched Helper work from those Guys in the USA and not one of them do a little but important thing when doing helper work with a Young Dog
As regards to you being trained by Belgian Helpers, who are they and where in Belgium and when, that should not be too hard to find out.
And if you condone the way the Helper acted in the WUSV i would not rate you one bit, Yes, we all have our right to say what we want and i stick to what i did see in the Two days i was there, Because if that Guy was right then all the Helpers i see working over here are wrong, plus the People watching were wrong so we had all better pack in the sport and take up and play Tiddle Winks instead
And all you Guys over there finish off a post by saying have a nice one, I do not care what sort of day you have, in fact with a head as big as you have i hope you have a bloody good headache
Steve1 |
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I was at the WUSV in Krefeld. Superb work from the short work helper. He was just very fast and dogs were caught off guard with the raw pace this man brought to the table. Cry about the unfair helperwork all day long if you like, but proof is in the pudding, the BEST dogs on the day didn't struggle with the helper. Watching Jurgen Zanks dog with the power and the direct targetting was truly awesome.
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I have to add my thoughts into this as well. I am helper and a pretty good one i must add. This helper just took off in a dead run. He wasn't trying to help the dogs nor did he care if they got a good grip. It isnt his job to help the dogs but just do the routine the dog in question simply took a bad angle and the helper didn't look him into the sleeve. Remember this same helper worked the bunddeseiger the week before so how bad could he have been. i watched the helper video they had on the website prior to the actual trial and me and several other past wusv handlers all chose this front half helper as the best as well.
Held,
I personally can tell you of 3 top dogs that i work that are trained for this type of trials. we use the sleeve cover with the plastic on it and if the dog is going anywhere but dead center we feed them the plastic so it cant get a grip. the handler has a line on the dog to pull him back after the miss. the dog learns to target dead center. then we set the dog up at so many wierd angles to the helper to teach him to run out in front of the helper and then hit the sleeve dead center. i have spent many sundays doing 40- 50 escape bites to teach this to our club dogs.
zegienfarm
i work with and have studied the helper at the 2008 wusv in detail.i challenge you to find a better helper in world than him. He is in my opinion one of the best in the world. The drive you mention puts lots of pressure on the dogs but i can assure you its completely safe.
Steve1
Im not trying to argue or debate what you saw on video of our helpers here but i do wish to add 2 thoughts for you to think about. 1. There is more than one road that leads to Rome. we tend to believe that our home country is the best at everything and how i learned is the correct and only way. 2. What makes you so certain that what you see in your country is the correct way to work young dogs? Also compare apples to apples compare our best training helpers to yours not just some guy who did a youtube video to try and help stroke his ego.
What we all should have learned is to train our dogs for all types of sleeve presentations.
ceddyg |
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| ceddyg ,thanks for a great post |
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Ceddyg, excellent post. Now let's see if these people can learn something from your post.
Denise |
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Ceddy, great post.
I was at the 08 wusv and have seen videos since and the helper work there was very good. I thought every dog was worked consistently day after day, dog after dog, and done safely.
I watched a bit of this video. Not the best presentation, but this is a big event, maybe sleeve presentations weren't supposed to be "perfect" I don't know, I don't care. We train for that as well. Ronny is a good trainer, I bet his dog is ready for this next time. |
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Ceddy...you said it better than me....Steve1...I wouldn't tell you a thing about anybody I know...you are embarrassing! I have not heard such complaining at such a huge event in my life!
ron |
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Judron
If i am wrong then so is every person watching that Helper, as i said he was NOT strong enough to handle some Dogs If a Helpers arm is pulled round near to his back when the dog is attached to his arm then that man is simply not strong enough plus he was nearly dropped to the ground one or two times his knees buckled That is what i am saying and that should not happen on an escape
Now i said at the beginning of this thread i was not getting into a slanging match but Greats like you with a head as big as a bushel basket do tend to get me that way Just as well i do not get the same way with Dogs only my own kind like you
As for telling me who the Guys were over here i expected you to say just what you have done, You are as i thought you were a lot of P--- and wind,However i will make my own inquires as to which Guys from the USA have trained to do Helper work over here in the last 15 years or so something will come up for i know most of the Top trainers and Helpers in Belgium we will meet up during the Winter i am sure My last on this subject of Krefeld
Steve1 |
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Steve why should a helper not be taken around the back on an escape ? If you've ever been taken at the elbow doing helperwork, surely you would know keeping your balance is the hardest thing to do. I agree wholeheartedly with CEDDY great post. He did work the Bundiessieger previous to this so he can't be too bad. I understand it aint nice to see your puppies sire struggle at a big event, but FACTS are FACTS Steve and he did.
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dsv
I am not talking about Izzys Dad in particular i am talking about a fair number of Dogs on the whole, When will you Guys get that in your heads, but you keep harping on the same note
However i guess you have seen the Video of Izzys Dad and the Dog got him right in the correct place but the helpers arm was pulled back, the dog readjusted his grip no fault there of the Dog
three Dogs one after the other missed the Bite they were terminated Como was before them so that was four Dogs at Fault according to you and Others, Plus there were more, SO what the hell were those Dogs doing at a WUSV if they are so incompetent, you can see on the long attack but not on the escape that amount of dogs is not realistic and as i said they were not the only ones that i saw in two days what about the other two days which i did not see
But as i said it is over you get some on here who want to show how clever and knowledgeable they are, but only they know I have been around long enough to know what i see i have seen in the last 5 odd years some 60 different helpers working Dogs some good some bad some doing what this guy did and some nit strong enough to handle certain dogs
Its Sods Law who are picked to do the Job, i have no gripes about one Dog i am talking over all performance of the helpers work,He never got one Cheer in favour of him but then what do the People watching know nothing according to you Guys we should have sat there and said nothing then got you Experts from the USA to explain it to us, because we over here in Europe are not up to your standard and a little on the thick side it seems, thats the impression i get of you Guys
But what intrigues me most is this, Why do you Guys or Clubs over there Import Judges and Helpers on a great many occasions to Judge and do Seminars over there in the USA, You do not need any inferior people from this side of the World when you have people like yourself and Ceddey and Judron on this site they can do the job without paying someone to come all that way, after all you Guys know it all
But from now post on i have said all i have too
Steve1 |
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Again Steve I think your being a little judgemental, I don't think any of us think we know it all, just stating what we saw. You hear time and time again it's the helpers fault, when in fact the helper was selected before the huge event to do the helperwork and knowbody had a problem then with it. I don't imagine there would have been any complaints had no dogs got a bad grip. Blaming the helper is the easiest option, afterall very few will actually own up and blame their dog or training. Shouldn't a dog be taught to come up against anything in a trial situation ? For me the dogs that were lazy or didn't target properly didn't get a good bite and it's as simple as that. I think far too many dogs were probably fed the sleeve in training and when this guy locked his sleeve and went off like a shot, the dog's couldn't cope. Lets hope next year the helper at the WUSV feeds the sleeve nicely to the dogs then everybody goes home happy.
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I had a judge tell me to slow down on the escape......!
steve1....I never said you were wrong...just giving a different view than all the complainers concerning the helpers. As far as asking in Belgium about me....you are such a fool. Who am I? Like I know who you are on a international forum....what a joke! |
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Yes Judron
I am a joke, but is your name not Ron or is that false as well, i can ask if there are helpers from the USA who worked over here christian name Ron, there may be or may not be but i can find out,
However what have you got to lose if what you say is right then credit to you for putting yourself out to do it
But i will make a point of trying to find out fool or not
and if anything with me is , I always keep my word
Steve1 |
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You do not need any inferior people from this side of the World
oh steve1, you are so shallow! You sound like a spoiled child:-) You turned this into a us against them scenario because someone disagreed with you. Lighten up....big man. |
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See...there you go again..ASSuming things without properly understanding the whole picture. The helpers I know and worked with came over here...to the good ole USA! They camee from belgium, Germany, Finland, and other parts of this great world. I met them while they were doing seminars here in the states.....(why am I telling your arrogant A** this:-)
At the time...I was a babe in the woods as far as scutzhund helper work goes....by the way...is your name steve1...
Ask away big guy....what could I possibly be afraid of....you have no affect on my life..I just like reading your biased accounts of things! |
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Steve1,
I still await your response to my question about what makes you so sure your training methods are t`he right way. We bring people from all over the world simply because we are trying to learn from everyone that we feel are great in the sport. Why dont you bring them to belguim? Is it cause you dont need to learn anything else in the sport. My best friend and mentor in this sport just taught me something that i never really noticed. He told me that he doesn't have a program or training system.He picks up things from the people he meets.He added something in his tracking a while back that he got from another top trainer that came to him for help with his tracking. Funny how you can learn from your students.Our top trainers also do seminars all over the world not just in the states. Last but not least Seminars are about making money not about learning how to train. Americans are still a little crazy in this aspect. We bring in a big name from Europe and they flock to seminars, clubs make money and they feel good about their dogs being worked by a big name trainer. I know that the clicker training method is being used all over Europe now. The funny part about that is that it was developed here in USA. Seems to me our training techniques are being used in Europe and BELGUIM as well.
Ceddyg |
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| Judron has been a helper at local, regional and NATIONAL events in the USA. The USA has won the WUSV in the past and is usually in the top five. When Judron was helper at the Nationals the consensus here in the states was he did an excellent job. Not going to weigh in on what happened in Kresfield, but I doubt that most of the people who are in dialogue here, could catch national level dogs successfully at the level of the dogs in the USA, much less know as much about the fine points of a successful national level helper as a person who has walked the walk successfully. This is just my opinion. |
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Judron
YES, My real name is Steve, the 1 added on in case of another Steve posting on the forum,
My Family name PATRICK born in good old London town at the start of WW11 and a Cockney to boot, born under the sound of the Bow Bells i have nothing to hide at all from you who hide behind pennames, The above can be verified by a few on this forum who know who i am and where i come from not that it matters for i do not care who knows
You do not have to be a helper to know when one is handling things wrongly or is not tough enough for some dogs that stands out like a sore thumb that is the Crux of this matter, I do not want to here of your accompishments in helper work or anyone elses over there that is nothing to do with this thread, no more than you want to here about how i was champion of England at some Sports many moons ago
I repeat if i am wrong then all the people watching that Guy work are wrong, But we have to believe you people who probably were not even at the event and just because you do a bit of helper work yourselves
I asked a couple of helpers over here and they said he was not so good as they expected a fellow to be doing the job he did for the WUSV
WE will agree to disagree on this, nothing will come of it except bad feelings not again that it matters to me butt it can go on for ever we do not see eye to eye and i doubt it will be the last time, for sure something will crop up again to disagree on
Steve1 |
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WE will agree to disagree on this, nothing will come of it except bad feelings
I have no bad feelings towards you steve1
not again that it matters to me butt it can go on for ever we do not see eye to eye and i doubt it will be the last time, for sure something will crop up again to disagree on
I agree:-)
ron
Gustav...thank you for the glowing resume'-)
ron |
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| Steve1, Why are you getting so upset about peoples opinions. That's all this is. This is people's perception of what they saw whether it be on video or in person. People can see things differently. Its OK. Why do we have to resort to inuendos about USA/Belgium/or Europe. I understand that you were a national level martial artist. I am sure that is more than knowing "a bit about martial arts". Lets be fair. People were talking about the helper work in reference to this thread, Ron happens to have an extremely high level of knowledge and competence in helper work. Belgium has good dogs and trainers, Holland has good dogs and trainers, Germany has good dogs and trainers, Sweden has good dogs and trainers, Czech Republic has good dogs and trainers, and other countries also. No reason to personalize this on country or people level. I respect your opinion, and do understand that many felt the helper work could have been more traditional. Either way you and Ron are both good dog people. From past posts I find both of you to be competitive and liking top class dogs. I agree with your last post about you guys agreeing to disagree, but don't understand the need to belittle people or countries with sarcasm. Take care...peace. |
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Gustave
I sure am not upset with anyone but give as good as i get , Yes, we will disagree on many things because that is human nature but there is no animosity towards anyone on my part its just words,
i guess if we ever met we would but each other a Pint or two, Agreed on one thing there are good and bad Helpers and Trainers everywhere they are not all good in Belgium, But the one thing we should think about i suppose is they they are few on the ground meaning Helpers, and without them the sport will die,
At the moment in our clubs we have two young Guys learning now one has qualified but of course needs to practice and learn more the other has yet to get that far but is keen we need them badly so they get all the help they need from the older experienced Helpers
Steve1 |
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Hey Ceddyg,i am not sure what is the reason you are trying to explain to me your tricks to teach the dog to aim to the centre.Or your reason to brag how many dogs you have trained.
All i am saying is that it does not matter what and where you have trained the dog to aim or to bite if the decoy moves the target how a dog supposed to bite it right.
I am pretty sure that someone of your expertise can understand that.
If not then please bring me these so called dogs you speak of that you have trained anfd let me give him a bite and we 'll see how your dog bites it properly.
you are an expert decoy and i am not and i would still make your dog bite wrong.Have a nice one. |
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The day you choose to stop learning from others is the day you should stop training dogs. No one knows everything, and sometimes you can learn a great deal from someone totally new to the sport. We learn more by our mistakes than our success. It takes one failure to learn something new, but in success we learn nothing as we are assure that we know everything. My father said to me when I was very young, the day you will wake up and realize that you know nothing will be the first day you learned something.
Steve, there are plenty good trainers in the USA one thing you can be sure you should not judge level of trainers in here by watching youtube videos, most of the great trainers that I met never posted a single video on youtube of their training. They don't need it as they don't need to be assure by other people that they are good at what they do. That's something that we rookies do, to boost our ego as it was mention in previous post.
We choose to import different judges, trainers to learn not because we are not good enough, but there is always one more thing to learn from someone else, especially from people that you don't get a chance to watch or train with everyday. Some of the world best training teams are in USA, so this should tell you something. Another reason why we import these judges and trainers is because we have money to do it. Flying in a judge is not a big expense even local clubs do it same goes for helpers and trainers if the club wants it bad enough.
I always believed that you get 3 helpers together and the only thing they will agree on is the mistakes of the 4th one. :) So since it appears that many helpers don't see nothing wrong with the helper work I will take their world for it, as they are more experience than me. I agree with their point that dog of that caliber should know how to deal with bad presentation, sure it's not something I would put my dog through, but I am not a world competitor. These dogs are consider to be the best of the best, so it should be expected more out of them. Plus I am the kind of person that dose not believe in making excuses for my dogs.
Saying all that I still don't like the way that helper worked the dog lol ;) but that's my opinion and opinions are like assholes we all got one and they all stink ;) |
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What we all should have learned is to train our dogs for all types of sleeve presentations
This above statement is the most stupid statement ever.The bite bar for target bite is only in one place on the sleeve if you move that target the dog will never bite the target and bite everywhere else.
the statement in question came from a so called expert decoy. WOW. Have a nice one. |
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Snaiper
No one is making excuses for the Dogs and i am not going on dogs watched on you tube i attend 20 plus Competitions a year at least, another one this Sunday in the Netherlands, I sure know what i am looking at and If not, its best i pack up the sport and find some other hobby Best you stick to your own conclusions and i will stay with mine, some of you are not going to give way you stick together like Glue and i sure will not, so as i said call it quits for nothing will come out of it in the end, Judron and myself have agreed but some of you are hell bent on carrying on
What about the people watching the event live like myself do they not count or are they put in the same category as myself someone who does not know what they are looking at for acording to the guys here they did not including a few of the competitors who were also watching at the time i was and i do not mean Belgium ones
Were the three in question at Krefeld OR did they view videos on You Tube if they did no notice should be taken of videos on you tube, your words
One thing you can learn by videos is you can play it back and watch for finer points i picked up on quiet a few which did escape the powers to be judging, i.e the Stand a Dog is not supposed to move it has to stand exactly as it stops not move even one foot but many did but were not penalized for doing so just one little point you can see as an illustration
Steve1 |
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What we all should have learned is to train our dogs for all types of sleeve presentations
at the risk of beating a dead horse or encouraging others to keep arguing. This is what should be the take home message for everyone.
It is not a stupid comment or even an impractical comment. People all over train their dogs for different scenerios and sleeve presentations. Just by teaching the dog to target in front of the helper rather than at the sleeve and setting your dog up to head the off the escape rather than "chase" will put your dog in a much better position to get a good target and bite.
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Como is a young dog that we will no dought see in the trial arena for several more years and I would think he will only get better with age (not that there is anything wrong with him now) There is no reason to get caught up in this pissing match "you pays yer money you takes yer chances" maybe next time it will be another dog that gets a questionable presentation and we will see how that dog handles it. I saw a young dog on 2 young strong helpers I can,t catch dogs,can,t run from dogs, nor would I try and I have the deepest respect for those that do weather they use bite pants and sleeves or a linnen suit you all have my respect and the helpers in question and the dog all have shown that they deserve to be there by there work ethic and training.
The thing I found most impressive (you might think me strange) is that Como Checked each blind as he ran. I find to many dogs even at this level just run blinds to get to #6 and Como checks each blind as he passes I like that. I like his long bite and his attack in the back transport. I just like the dog. |
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Bob
You are correct there is no point in getting into a pissing match for it does not serve any purpose and peoples minds will remain the same as before it started, all really a waste of everyones time, as all threads die away in the end
Steve1
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Held,
The point of that i was addressing that you statement that know one trains for things like this to occur. We do here is my point. Also you might want to read my posts again. I never once said i trained any dog. I simply said i worked them not trained them.Big big difference but maybe you haven't figured that out yet. Anyways i didn't intent this to be a im better than you post or i can do this and you can't post. Take my thought for whatever its worth to you of just think of me a idiot either way ill still train my dog and hope to improve each day.
Ceddyg |
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