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Classified: Bernese Mountain Dog Puppies
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My Final Thoughts on USA By-law Change (88 replies)
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This was posted yesterday on the other forum: One competitor who was tirading about the amendment passing REFUSED to pull, when it was suggested that he do so, if he felt that strongly.
Those of you that vote no to this by-law change and stay are fools, those of you that didn't vote are worst then them. The leadership of USA knew that most people in this organization would be self serving, they knew that most of the people talking SHIT against the by-law change was only doing just that. I don't blame the leadership as much as I blame the members for this change. They are laughing at the people that voted no and stayed. "Everybody have principle until it cost them something"
People that stayed and showed their dogs after voting no I guess the cost was to high to pull? People that voted no and stay in the organization I guess giving up 300 trials a year of which you might show in 1% or less is to much to give up so you gave up your principles first. Well Shame on you!
I understand this is about the power of numbers and that USA leadership feel that if they have the numbers that will have the power at the WUSV. Wrong!! The real number is 1. The GSDCA and the GSDCA-WDA will not go away if they lose a 1000 members because of that number. That number is the reason why the SV will continue to send judges to the GSDCA-WDA. Without mentioning names that 1 sits on the board of the WUSV and is part of the organizations USA is afraid of.
Those of you that voted "NO" and competed or stay in the United Schutzhund Club of America according to the statement above that was posted on the USA site, you are being laughed at! How do it feel?
Wallace Payne |
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| Wallace, you are correct, I tried my best, called and wrote letters, have been a member for over 15 years, I am leaving USA sch. personally I think most of our objections were simply swept under the rug. We are a WDA club, BUT, living in Kansas most of the shows we have fairly close to us are USA shows, Have some really nice Gucci Grand kids we were going to take to a show only 3 hours from us, this would have been their first time out, including my Gucci son Kaluv, now, of course, that is out...I am still in shock that this ridiculous "thing" passed, Many of is tried our best, to no avail...and I am angry about it...Guess we will just have to have a show - trial at our place...You did all you could to encourage all of us to do our part, we did, at least the people I know did, but some how all of our efforts were just somehow dismissed...How arrogant of the USA Sch. Org. Thank You for your efforts, Lida |
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Wallace,
I agree with everything you said except for "Everybody has principles until it costs them something".
This vote did cost every member, every dog, and the entire organization.
It will be hard to watch the fall-out from this vote.
A couple of cliches come to mind.
From a club member: "No Good Deed Goes Unpunised" and my all time favorite ... " You Can't Fix Stupid" |
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| "The level of tyranny you live under, equals exactly how much you will tolerate." |
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| Would like to know names and postion/title of people who voted this in. Also when or if they come up for election? |
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| I am sure Joann Letcher could answer that. |
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| Wallace you are 110% right. Just like every other sport out there, politics grabs it by the horns and greed sets in and the next things you know poof all gone, problem fixed. Its pathetic as all get out and sad to. Cheers |
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Does anyone know when and where you can read the minutes of the meeting? |
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Wallace, to say that you are just a very well-respected dog trainer and Schutzhund participant is a great understatement. Your success, sportsmanship, and stewardship speaks volumes of your dedication to the GSD and to the Schutzhund world. I agree with the spirit of your statements. Those who think this By-Law change is a bad thing do not need to be cowards - they need to show their courage and honour by choosing to not renew their membership.
While I still cannot digest 100% the full intentions of why the executive board made these changes I can certainly make my own direction here. I looked last night at my account with U.S.c.A. and my membership is due for renewal during January 2010. Guess what? Ing. Robert Forbus, U.S.c.A. member 00011288 will not renew his membership.
This is not an easy decision as I have been a member of U.S.c.A. for a very long time. But it is a decision that for me is 100% correct. The club is leaving me - just as the "leadership" has left many other people from the fruits of their spiteful egos. So they now want to do their own thing their own way? Well, they are certainly free to do just that. As a member-at-large I had absolutely no say in this decision, but of course that is now a moot point.
But this does allow me to do something that in the past required me to be careful and diplomatic. I can now make a very strong public criticism of U.S.c.A. the next time they recognize displays of soft bitework as "pronounced courage" and the next time they protect a member whose unsportsmanlike and unprofessional shenanigans are publicized for all to see.
It is not my wish to see U.S.c.A. fold, hence, it is not an easy decision to choose to not renew my membership. I know that U.S.c.A. struggled financially several times over the years but was able to survive. But the only thing that speaks in this game is money - the money from membership dues and national events.
And remember folks, U.S.c.A. is not the only game in town and really never has been. The D.V.G. has existed for many decades and the G.S.D.C.A.-W.D.A. has made strong gains during the last several years. I know that we all have problems with the A.K.C.'s interpretation of the GSD, but the latter organization is more closely connected to A.K.C. than U.S.c.A. could ever be. And if change occurs it will start with the G.S.D.C.A.-W.D.A. and filter through the G.S.D.C.A. to the A.K.C.
Maybe all of this makes an inevitiable outcome appear sooner than expected - the survival and emergence of but one (1) GSD working dog group who can maintain connections with the S.V. and promote changes within the A.K.C..
I equate this to a career interruption I incurred three (3) years ago. While it was not devastating, in a sense it did make a major interruption in my life. It took a lot of time and a lot of effort, but I am now doing better than I would be had I been allowed to stay at that organization. I am still tempted to write a certain V.P. a letter to thank him for his shortsightedness that ended a 26-year career, as I have been more successful because of it. So perhaps in a similar way we may someday thank the current members of the U.S.c.A. board for their recent decisions. Perhaps someday....
Best Regards,
Bob-O |
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Bob-O,
I'm with you and many others that I have spoken with regarding this issue. My membership is due to renew next month......I am sending what my renewal fee would have been for USCA to the next WDA show for trophy sponsorship!
It is really sad that politics has to be considered more important than the breed it is founded and funded by!
A sad day indeed, that one area that allows people from all walks of life, religion belief systems etc.. that truly love this breed and actively get involved are being strong armed into one organization or another! I have enjoyed showing my dogs under both but will not support an organization that makes "either or else" mandates. I suppose the only thing that can explain this move is the USCA is trying to one up the WDA as opposed to being the better organization by way of quality work in the field, causing a natural influx of membership vs. forced membership. If they were not willing to listen to the opposing input from the membership prior to this vote then what makes any of us believe they will listen to any input of members once we are under forced membership????
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"I know that we all have problems with the A.K.C.'s interpretation of the GSD, but the latter organization is more closely connected to A.K.C. than U.S.c.A. could ever be. And if change occurs it will start with the G.S.D.C.A.-W.D.A. and filter through the G.S.D.C.A. to the A.K.C."
Thank you, Bob! This is what I have been trying to say forever!
If you don't like the AKC version of the GSD, change it, people! Find the biggest AKC shows in your area and get out there. So what if your dog doesn't win in confo. Show in obedience, show in rally, show in agility, show in confo anyway, show in something! There are still BIG AKC spectator events out there. I go to the big one in Chicago in February as often as I can and you would not believe the crowds german dogs draw. Even average folk who are not dog people can see my dogs look and behave completely different than the ones winning in confo a few rings down, and are drawn to them. And once you educate someone on the differences between a german dog and an akc type dog, they often don't look at the akc type again.
AKC show people are just like us- most of their puppies go to pet homes. What happens when the public doesn't want dogs like that anymore? Who breeds a litter when they have gotten 0 puppy calls in months? Who breeds again when their last litter sat for months because no one wanted them? If an AKC conformation ring has more german dogs than american, don't you think they'll start putting up some german dogs? Of course there will always be fluffy pretty AKC show dogs. The work vs. show war is prevalent in many other breeds, too, but getting the AKC to see the working type GSD as the correct type would not only be a dream come true for us, but an inspiration for other breeds as well!
I apologize for this somewhat off topic rant, but the message is the same. as the saying goes, be the change you want to see in the world.
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Good bye USA...............YES WE CAN!!!! |
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| KCaja, That would be awesome if the AKC ring became dominated by German type dogs. I hope we see it oneday. |
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We'll only see it when we do it! No one will wave a magic wand over the AKC GSD ring. As someone else said- it took years to ruin them, it will take years to fix them. Rather than spurn the GSDCA for what they have done to the breed, why not join them and be part of a push to change them back? Again, if there are more members who support the SV GSD than the AKC GSD, pressure can be put on the GSDCA to change their ways! German dogs will never outnumber American ones, in the breed ring, or in GSDCA membership, unless we take it upon ourselves to outnumber them.
The situation with USCA sucks, but as it has been suggested, the change in the long could be for the better if we make it so!
And since it's bound to come up...I'll reiterate again the AKC really can't get its claws around schutzhund with any real success. The SV decides the standards for which a dog is eligible for a koerung, if the AKC tries to change the sport it simply will not work. No one will show in an event that is not accepted for a KKL. SV breeders will remain SV breeders.
I think it would be great if SchH clubs got a handler to teach them AKC show handling and entire SchH clubs turned up at local AKC breed shows for confo en masse. I'd seriously pay money to see the looks on exhibitors and judges' faces. Maybe I'm still too young, an idealist, maybe I'm just dreaming, but if the working GSD community unites, it can be done. If you don't think so, you underestimate the popularity boom in German dogs.
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Bob-O:
Thinking the the GSDCA has any abality to change the AKC ? that friend that will never happen in a million years and I will bank money on that statment, The GSDCA endorses the AKC standard. There won,t be any change other then the lowering of the standard for the German Shepherd dog. This whole thing is a big shit sandwich and it won,t be over till everyone has had a mouthful. If i,m not mistaken 3 years ago the SV took the GSDCA to task at the meeting over there top seiger pick as the standard to win by... I wish I had all the answers but alas i,m a card carring nobody but I can,t agree with the ineviatble out come of the switch to WDA .
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Bob, I sincerely understand your feelings on this matter. And as I said, it was not an easy decision for me to choose to not renew my membership. Please know that it was not just the outcome of this vote to change the By-Laws; moreso it is a build-up of issues that have occurred during the past two (2) years where U.S.c.A. seemed to look the other way or chose to not look at all. First, negligence, then spite. Damn it; what could be next? Failure, I guess.
Is switching to the G.S.D.C.A.-W.D.A. the solution to this matter? I cannot say for sure that it is. I put it this way - they have not done anything (or failed to do anything) that really pissed me off during the past two (2) years. That is a hell of a way to judge the performance of an organization, I agree.
So, the challenge now falls to Danny Spreitler, et al. If G.S.D.C.A.-W.D.A. is to use the outcome of this decision as a means to pick up the pieces of fallout and support the GSD as it is intended to be; now they have the chance to do just that. There can be no exclamation of "we won" from anyone in the two (2) groups, as no one has won anything yet and at the moment we are all losers to some degree.
So, I placed my money where my mouth is - I just completed a membership application to G.S.D.C.A.-W.D.A. and enclosed a cheque. The U.S.c.A. will not feel the petty sting from me until January 2010 when I will fail to renew my membership. At that time I will explain my reason to them - should anyone care enough to read my letter. Perhaps in time U.S.c.A. will see the error of its ways - perhaps not. The only change that will be effective is a complete replacement of the executive board, and that is much easier to say than do.
Best Regards,
Bob-O
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Bob_O
It is a sad state of affairs when the majority feel there decision is between the lesser of two eveils. But they have all put us in this spot. |
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It is just plain wrong, from every angle. ethically and professionally, to require that membership in the USCA be the only such membership one holds. IF people do not speak out about this in a way that is definitive, then I can guarantee that this same group of people will be emboldened and dictate additional measures that will be grievous to the average person in the membership.
I urge people and clubs to withdraw NOW, insist on a prorated refund (of course, they will refuse to do the right thing here and refund money paid), and not wait until membership is due once again. IF USCA sees people leaving in droves NOW, perhaps something will change. If they see people leaving a few at a time over the course of a year, they will justify it by saying it was to be expected and is just normal attrition. A statement must be made, loud and clear. The ONLY thing that will count with them is a loss of income and clubs and memberships, not simply posting here or there that one is upset with the decision made by a small group of people. |
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Bob-O and Hodie sum it up in all that needs saying...All will agree and must act.
Bob-O voiced most of our sentiments on the last two years of much covering up and washing under the rug things that should have been taken care of in other ways and ignored the membership in all of the incidents and all the concerns that were written, called and emailed. as if membership was not even effected or even mattered..Now lets see who matters..Thanks BOB-O and Wallace Payne , and Eric Eisenberg for voiceing withour fear of retrobution.
YR |
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no change has ever happened by people sitting back and waiting.
actions speak loader than words.
the problem i see,,,, somehow this does impact USCA ( why do so many people leave out the C?) they change the rules again. people go back. nothing learned, nothing gained. 5 years from now, its something new.
Clubs dont change the breed. Breeders do.
john |
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A friend alerted me to this discussion, and I don't know if my reply will be accepted, as I'm not a "member" of chat lists. However, as a retired SV Zuchtrichter and former member of UScA, WDA, and GSDCA, I hope you'll let me put my 2 cents in.Excerpts from an e-mail I just sent, stimulated by the pulling out of the Dec. UScA breed show where I was going to handle a dozen entries or more:
I predict that unless the UScA does an about-turn to stop the bleeding, they will soon revert to the SchH-trial-only club that they were in the beginning. I remember when they had their first Sieger Shows, and everything looked promising. Then they dropped the ball and let the AKC club (GSDCA) step in front of them and get the WUSV membership! That was Johannes' first big dumb move on this particular matter. The next was having their Sieger Shows judged by non-SV judges. Now, the foot is in the mouth up to the kneecap! If that's the way they want to go, they will have to live with the consequences. They will lose member clubs, entries at breed events, and breeders.
Oh, well, for those of us who want to continue active in "the total dog" (breed shows included), I predict many more WDA affiliations will be seen. Meanwhile, for UScA clubs who were caught by this vote and will now lose the entries that would have paid their bills, I suggest immediately forming a WDA club under a different name and with officers' names shuffled around; and petitioning WDA to take over the planned breed-show events. Even if they have to use a different field than that used for trials.
Perhaps the DVG (Deutscher Verband der Gebrauchshundsportvereine, http://www.dvgamerica.com/ ) will be interested in taking up any slack that is bound to result in UScA's slippage. That is still a good venue for the SchH etc. sports people.
For the Total GSD and the sport,
Fred aka "Mr.GSD"
Fred Lanting, Willow Wood Consulting
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When does this amendment take effect? Now? Jan. 1?
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Well, I gave it a try. Guess DVG is not an alternative. In the South and some other regions (Lyda mentioned her midwest expanse of geography), clubs and events are a great distance away. I hope WDA sets up an enticing invitatio to UScA clubs to jump ship and establish WDA clubs in these vacuum areas.
Here's DVG's reply: The name Fred Lanting is known throughout the dog world for devotion to the German Shepherd. However, DVG America is not interested in "picking up the slack" from disaffected USCA clubs. DVG is an _all-breed_ _sport dog _organization that allows non-registered mixed breed dogs to participate in any and all events, including our championships and including representing our LV in the DVG BSP and the dhv DM, should they qualify, in Germany. One of the requirements for clubs requesting membership in DVG America is that _any and all_ breeds and mixed breeds are accepted in the club and must be so stated in the club's by-laws. There is no such thing as an individual member of DVG. You can't make application to the DVG office to become an at-large member of DVG. Individuals achieve DVG membership only as members of _member clubs_ of DVG and acceptance of an application to become a member club is decided
upon by the region in which the club is located. Acceptance is not automatic.
DVG America has had a cordial relationship with the USCA since the late 70's, one that has become even closer since DVG America became a member of AWDF. Any group of people wishing to enjoy the sport of Schutzhund (or Vielseitigkeitspruefung fuer Gebrauchshunde as it is known in DVG) to develop good working dogs and enjoy a working relationship with their dogs is welcome. But any group wishing to form a DVG America club for the sole purpose of thumbing their collective noses at USCA is not. We are a sport club. And opening our clubs up to any and all disaffected USCA members, thus embroiling DVG America in this political mess, is not a path we wish to follow.
Carole Patterson, President LV/DVG America
Fred, aka "Mr.GSD" |
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If that quoted email attributed to Carole is verbatum, then I it certainly throws more reason to join GSDCA and other AKC breed clubs who, when the SchH venue is approved, will with probabilty be able to compete for spots on an AKC FCI team. If DVG would take in clubs, then they would be fielding teams through AWDF. Again, these type of actions of we don't want you only fuels participation in AKC club events with SchH.
In WDA you can compete with any breed in a trial up to the national level. Obviouly in shows or koerungs you cannot as that is breed specific. I beleive in GSDCA AKC events, and even in the last National Cup WDS competition, all breeds are welcome but preference will be given to the GSD if entries are limited.
I am really shocked if this is what Carole wrote because her husband Gary was one of the founders of WDA and another reason it is formed under Colorado law.
USA and DVG held together the SchH in this country for years as AKC would not accept it. Thank God they were there. But this is not a time for either one to become exclusive rather than inclusive, they have way too much time spent building great organziations. DVG is its own fiefdom as it owes its loyalty and membership only to DVG and is an LG of the DVG in Germany. None of these organizations can affect their teams to the Meisterschaft. Being a member of DVG does give a person the ability to compete at a USA trial though the membership in AWDF. This would I beleive circumvent the what club you were allowed to belong to and also allows a non USA member to compete for the AWDF team - again this all goes back to team qualifications. |
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Hi Fred,
I read this reply to you from Mrs. Patterson and it saddens me that it is so negative. Yes, we all know that DVG is an organization that promotes dog sport and not breed related issues. It is also understood that DVG membership is only to be achieved through club memberships. But what Mrs. Patterson fails to see here is that the disenchantements are not only happening on an individual basis but whole clubs might want to defect. After all, most clubs usually are made up by training enthusiasts and not necessarily breeders. The ones whose membership comprises of breeders and/or show enthusiasts apparantly made their choice a while ago and stuck with WDA. Other breeds and mixed breeds have always been welcome in UScA and WDA clubs. This aspect should not be an issue. I hope that Mrs. Patterson will either read this discussion thread here or somebody will advise her to be a little bit more friendly and accommodating to dog sport people who are now trying to find a new home for training.
As Hodie stated, let's leave UScA now! Otherwise, it will not make an impact and the bullies won! It is so sad as we have been members for close to 17 years now!
Our membership renewal was due on November 1 but I had wanted to wait on the outcome of that meeting. Now, I will send my renewal card back voided with a farewell letter.
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| I don,t blame the DVG for not wanting to get involved in this mess. There strictly a all breed sport club why would they? |
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Just imagine...everyone jumping ship...no fight in them. No wonder the EB was able to pull it off!
ron |
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| Well, I think most of us think that withholding money is a good way to speak out. But I'm game if anybody has a better plan. Has ANY dissenting viewpoint EVER changed what the EB has voted on and made them change back? And if so, how was that accomplished? |
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I don't know of any business, club etc. that makes a change unless it has to do with finances or to shore soemthing up on a perceived future loss.
The number of people that do not care and this has no effect on, far outweighs those who voted for this and those opposed to this. People just have to choose based on indignation (which usually wanes and goes by the wayside), or choose what club is closer, provides more venues they can go to etc. etc. or start a new club and have things their own way. The hardest choice will be for top sport handlers. But then again, to obtain the top dogs, USA may very well allow members to be a member one year, drop out the next, rejoin the next. Since no one has seen this yet in writing - not sure what it addresses in joining, not renewing, then rejoining.
I doubt the rule will change unless the people leaving would impact USA financially or on a presitge level for the team. I am sure they have looked at it and figured they will not lose that many clubs or members and can financially withstand it and have the people they want for the teams that are not going to bolt and lose a chance to be on that team. Just have to see how it works out for USA. The one thing they can count on is people hate to change, don't like change. Look at all the people in abusive relationships that don't leave, they keep thinking if they just work from within things will change, yet they get beat up everyday. Sometimes its just easier for someone to stay rather than deal with the unknown. For the most part, people are followers and there are very few leaders or independent people. Most like to belong and take the path of least resistance. |
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| Asking again: when is this change effective? Now? Jan. 1? |
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Bolting at this time appears to be the easiest path if your jonesing for a fight stick around and play, It,s all personel opinion we will ahve to see where this ride takes us. |
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Bolting at this time appears to be the easiest path if your jonesing for a fight stick around and play, It,s all personel opinion we will have to see where this ride takes us. |
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Bob,
How does one "stick around and play"....if they already have a duel membership with WDA & UScA.?
Why would one renew a membership with UScA, if they are being told that they cannot keep their membership with WDA, IF doing so?? Fight who? Fight what?......
Our yearly dues, trial & show entries have always been "acceptable" and willingly taken by both organizations.
How can dropping a membership of WDA, and re-newing/keeping a membership of UScA, "bring the fight" to the EB??
Jump ship??.......the only choice duel members have is.....(sink or swim.)
Robin |
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| Bob, you're really not offering much of a plan. A couple cliches does not make a reasonable argument. Is there something you're not telling us? Do you have a plan in mind that you just don't want to broadcast? |
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| Is your membership up in USA now? Has the new ammendment been put in writting and sent out yet? do we know why this even happened other then speculation and heresay? I don,t know about you but i love putting the boots to politcal people and basically being a fly in the ointment but guess what I still get my dogs trained and titled. I,m not going to believe the full story untill I see it for my self as I,m also not going to run and hide because half a dozen big time show or breeders who rake in lots o cash from the GSD tell me to if I go it will be my decision not the elite names who make people go "wow they must know what there alking about"... I,d rather make sure for my self. |
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vommar:
I do know this I have not signed a "arbitration" clause as my dues are not due till april 2010 and I do know for sure that entities have been taken to court and overruled by not following Roberts rules of order.
I,m waiting to see where this roller coaster goes before I throw up all over it.
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger" I aint dead yet.
just a couple more "cliches" to add in there for ya.
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Thanks!  |
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This politic hick hack is just puzzeling to me.
When I look at the widespread areas here. I used to be in the DVG, not formaly enrolled but through a club that had ties to the VDH and DVG. which was sunny, becuase it was in a well "clubed" area so you had your pick.
Now I live in a well "no club availlabe area" . Not UScA not DVG not WDA in driving distance.
I can't afford to jetset with my dogs to training or to clubs.
The rare dog events are sparce and with lots of travel time involved. I am in for the breed I am in for the sport, but it is just no fun to be not able to play dogs becuase of some if-you-play-with-them-we-are-not-friends-anymore kindergarden rule.
Well who can you play with then?
Even if the choice is WDA, i just looked at the Applicationform did give me the impression you need to belong to some club in the area, and you need a sponsor (correct me if i am wrong).
Who as a member at large- that can't be a member at large is one supposed to play dogs with then?
AKC? Yes they work on bitework inclusion, but this is sparce, and just can get popular with people joining it, that know what it is. UKC has some stuff, but even here it just can be a go if people go there that have interst in it, and go and push the events...
How do you help the sport and the breed by limiting the appearance of the breed and it's skills?
How do you win members and encourage groth and change of standards in other organisaztions and lead by example, when you are not allowed to go or participate and lead by example?
Besides the fact, that I know that there are a lot of people geographically limited to their activities, what choice do they have in participating in the sport when there is this stupid rule?
Either you swallow the rule and just play with UScA, or you are playing alone in your backyard- because noone else will take you.
How many people do you think will stay in UScA, just because this is one of the only Breed/Sport dog club that let's you play with them when you are a member at large?
Makes me sad and sick at the same time!!! |
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Here are some thoughts on the DVG angle. First, I've recently joined DVG and Carole Patterson was extremely helpful with this. My experience with her is that she is very helpful when she can be.
So, my guess is, given the coziness between the AWDF and UScA (I believe there are a couple of board members who hold joint positions within each org) and given that the DVG is simply another AWDF member club, there is probably no way the DVG will be *permitted* to help with the ‘teaching of a lesson’ to the UScA. For those who don’t know, the UScA represents the GSD breed under the ‘umbrella’ of the AWDF. The AWDF has other ‘member’ clubs that represent other working breeds and the DVG seems to the ‘catch-all’ that focuses solely on sport and permits all breeds and mixed breeds to show. I think the intent is that the AWDF is the ‘FCI’ to the UScA (WUSV) type breed specific organizations.
So, DVG will be a place to go to trial, but not a harbor for disaffected UScA clubs to bolt to.
-Calvin
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I have a different take on why at least one of the competitors, who was physically there to voice his opinion to the board and actually stood up in the meeting to voice his opinion, yet still competed did so. I also know that this same competitor was approached and was told to withdrawal from the trial. Knowing this competitor as I do - he does not take kindly to anyone telling him what he should do whether it is an individual or an organization. Had he won, and yes he and many others did believe he/they had a very good chance to do so - he/they would have had a better "platform" to show their disdain of the ammendment by refusing to represent UScA in any further trials. It is easy to sit at home and voice an opinion from behind a computer and send a delegate to vote for you....kinda hypocritical to say that everyone has principles until it cost them something. I wonder if all the other big "players" attended the meeting in person as delegates- if things just might have gone a different way?
I gotta wonder if by leaving the organization we allow the tyrants to continue to rule - isn't it next year when the membership gets to vote these people out?
Some of these competitors who are being maligned because they chose to compete after voting no - probably don't spend time on a computer - so they probably have no idea what is being implied about them. Shame on those who sit in judgement !
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I am a member of both. Have no plans to jump ship on either.
Does look as though I'm being tossed over board by UScA
Rik |
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Many of you have the really wrong opinion of WDA, It is NOT an American Dog Association of American Shepherds. It is apples vs. oranges thing. American dog breeders have been to my kennel many times and said "I want a German Shepherd from German lines" NOT, ... WDA at least had the guts to take a stand against "Abuse" USA did not --.Am glad to have called USA today and had my name taken off their membership. For whatever it is worth...I am through with Organations that just want your money...but will not take a stand for the dogs |
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| Gucci,
Did you actually resign by sending the USA secretary a letter of resignation? |
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Thanks to the EB, my clubs trial, show and survey is cancelled. Too many people pulling out of USA to support the show. My membership will also be returning to them, along with a demand of a refund for the "show tax" I had to pay for cheapo USA registrations. They changed the rules after accepting my money so they can darn well provide a refund now that my dual membership is so distaseful to them. |
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That's a shame about your show.
I have decided to join DVG. Doing so gives many more choices; you can still trial at USCA events without paying USCA dues. |
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I was at the meeting and the vote may be able to be challenged. When the count went down it was 17 no, 36 yes, 2 abstain for a total of 55 votes. At fist the Presedent said that the total number did not match up to the number for roll call and we would have to take roll call again and have a revote so the total number of votes is correct. When he learned that the percentage of yes votes was 67.9% (a 2/3 majority), he decided to not retake roll cal and have a revote. With something this close the numbers must add up. |
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| HAH! Already feeling the THREAT, are they? |
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| Avorow, was your show in New Orleans? |
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I just noticed Kessy's post - Kessy, both DVG and WDA accept members without belonging to a club. In DVG a member at large cannot compete in Nationals nor vote as voting is done through clubs.
WDA membership does not require a sponsor if you are 18 yrs. of age or over. If you are 17 or under, you have to have a sponsor. You just read the app wrong.
Most clubs will allow people to come train, visit etc. You may have to pay a fee to train, but for the most part they do not. Eventually if you come all the time and all get along, then of course you would need to join the club.
Hope that clears it up for you. |
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All,
It was the OWDA trial/show/breed survey in Tulsa that was canceled for lack of show entries, specifically due to this bylaw change. Numerous entries from the trial and show were pulled or not entered due to this bylaw change. People could not justify the expense of USA registration when they would not ever be in a USA event again, since they were not keeping their USA memberships.
For us, at combination events like this, we plan on making enough money at the show to cover the costs of the trial. In this case, due to scheduling issues with the judge, we were only able to have a very limited number of trial entries (only had 1/2 day for the entire trial!) and had to count on the show entries to cover a large portion of the expenses. After this vote by USA, we saw that we would be unable to cover the costs of the event by a large margin (in the realm of $800 - $1200+ by most estimates). So, we had little choice but to cancel the event.
Normally, our shows are well attended, but with the economy the way it is, and piling the USA vote on top, there was no way we would be able to afford the event. So we canceled.
It was very unfortunate, as several members had already registered their dogs with USA, and we had several entered for the breed survey, but it was not something that we could afford to do, as a club. (We don't have a sugar daddy.)
For me personally, this was just the final nail in the coffin with my issues with USA, going back many years. I have been a member of USA since the mid-late '80s, and I, for one, am not looking back. I don't care whether or not this vote is rescinded; I will not rejoin. The direction that USA EB is going is not my direction, and I am tired of the organization being driven in a direction that is not in the best interests of the "whole dog" or whatever slogan they are currently pushing. I feel that I can spend my time more productively in the WDA, and hope to make it a better organization by my efforts. That is something that I feel I cannot do in USA, for various reasons. (By the way, I am not joining WDA in spite: I have been a member of WDA for 5 or 6 years, and the GSDCA for 3 or 4 years.)
(/rant on) Also, as an American, I also STRONGLY resent being told what organizations I can and cannot belong to, as a condition of being a member of a club that is one of several clubs that sanction trials for a hobby that I happen to spend a significant amount of my time on (man, that is a long sentence.. sorry!). Most members of USA are not professionals in the schutzhund training world, do not care about WUSV team membership, and do not like being told that they cannot belong to a GSD organization that issues their registration papers, by a supposed GSD organization that does not have any standing as a registration organization. It is insane. I would really like to know what the USA EB was thinking and their motivation for pushing this... I think... I have read several emails from USA officers trying to justify this, and they are not really coherent, unfortunately. Also, the conflict of interest argument is bogus, a red herring. (/rant off)
Larry Pinkston
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| No Nia, I called Becky and stayed on the phone with her until she removed my name. |
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| Resignation is by letter to the USA Secretary. |
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Follow-up question to Kim Gash. re. Kessy's question:
I looked at the DVG member-at-large application. A member-at-large may compete only in local trials, right? It says:
Sammelgruppen Membership (Membership-at-Large) entitles you to:
(1) Participate in local trials. (2) Scorebook(s) at no charge (3) Subscription to DVG America Magazine. Members-at-Large may not compete in Regional (KG) and National (LV) Championships.
So I'm confused. If you join as a member-at-large because there ARE no local clubs... doesn't that mean there are no local trials? If you can't compete in regionals or nationals, and there are no local trials, what can you compete in? Or does this mean you can travel to someone else's local trial and compete?
I'm not being sarcastic, I really want to know. I am in an isolated area too.
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| Thanks Nia, I will do a follow up letter... |
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| Yes, you can travel to other DVG club trials, but cannot compte in regional or national trials.
Many DVG club trial entry forms require the signature of the club training director, too. I don't know, however, whether it is an issue, if there is none. Never have figured that one out, as I had my USA Training Director sign. |
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You might also find a DVG club and ask if you can be an affiliate member - even if you don't actually train with them- you pay yearly dues and are on their membership roster for DVG. This is what I do, so that I can be a member of a DVG club and trial, if I wish to, at a Regional or National event.
molly |
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The Alpha K9 Schutzhund Club (USA) has been terminated. Its officers and members have made the right choice.
The USA BYLAW change will not benefit the GSD. USA will not take away our freedom of choice, it is un-American.
Our members are happy to be free of this socialist intent. We are members of the GSDCA/WDA and will continue to support this organization by working closely together.
Carlos Rojas |
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Jayne241-
You are just an individual member at that point - like any club, if you have no club affiliation, and there is no club closeby, you just have to go to whatever club trial you can get to.
In all of the organziations, you can be an individual member, you do not have to belong to a club to be member of the parent club. You can go trial at the clubs.
Currently, USA is the only club that requries you to be amember to trial even at club level - that was just passed last weekend along with the membership restriction.
With DVG and WDA, you do not have to be a member to trial up to National events.
Here is what Sandy Purdy of DVG wrote regarding at-large-members:
As far as at-large members that we Americans refer to. Our Sammelgruppen or at-large members are in the form of a club in each individual KG. They have no voting rights and cannot show at the nationals or KG Chps.. They can only participate in club trials and earn their titles.
What she is saying is that it is a "virtual" club - no physical club. KG's FYI are their Regions. So for each region, an at large member is just included in the "virtual" club in that region.
Hope that makes it clear. |
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| The difference between good and great leaders is not only justifying the intent of an action, but CALCULATING the IMPACT of an action. Time will tell on this amendment but initial response indicate this move was very shortsighted. |
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Well there goes a pretty good club and one that does alot to promote Schutzhund. I think it is obvious that Wallace Payne's club will go. Carlos has been a top competitor and just returned from the AWDF team this year. Shame that anyone is forced to making a choice or resigning on principal.
I have heard there are about 6 more show/breed oriented clubs leaving and going over to WDA.
On working dog oriented clubs, with Carlos and Wallace it makes 3 with another club here in the midwest that is resigning.
How many other clubs are out there that are resigning/canceling in protest? How many members?
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Maybe now it the time to create a club independent of the parent clubs. Sounds like it to me... (when you get it together) let me know when you need media support. Needs to be 100 % Constitutional though, you know American. 
LOL
"never let a good crisis go to waste"
Woof Woof
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DVG does not have SV judges do they??? That would put a GSD person right back in the spot where USCA put us in not having SV judges! The only choice is the WDA and yes there has been progress with the AKC and they will now recognize Sch titles! THat's huge progress and it is the WDA that has worked on this for years.
WDA all the way!!
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| DVG is a working dog group only, no conformation. They have their own judges. |
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The SV is BOTH working and conformation judges. They are the only judges Germany's SV will recognize in score books.
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| Not true. The SV recognized the scores from USA judges--those titles can be used in any breed survey in the US. Further, several USA judges are now SVF (SV Foreign) judges. |
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UScA has to recognize any of the AWDF groups/members/titles, including DVG, including at national events. However, DVG titles won't count toward breed surveys. That's how it was explained to me. Which is fine with me as I don't show my dogs. Don't give a hoot about conformation titles, since 9 out of 10 were about politics any-whooo. I just don't breed to males who aren't correct.
So if you belong to DVG, you CAN get to the regionals or nationals. Assuming you have a great dog!
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| Inaccurate. For the USA nationals, the requirement for entry is a qualifying score at a USA-sanctioned trial AND participation in a USA regional championship. |
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| GSDCA-WDA has always been the B team whenit comes to the sport. |
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People jumping the cliff like lemmings insteadt of thinking for themself.
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| USA now has 11 SVF judges. |
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wda the b team? really. from what i have noticed, most of the team members are both. i believe wallace payne has been on wusv teams for both usca and wda, with the same dog if im not mistaken.
it is no secret that some people who did not make the world team via usca, went and competed at wda nationals to try and make a spot, if that is what u are referring to.
i aspire to make the world team some year,,, dont know how soon it may be, but it is a goal of mine. maybe i wont join either club till im ready, then join usca and if i dont make it, quit them and join wda. too bad thats the way it would have to be seeing as usca wont allow me to be a member of both.
"USA now has 11 SVF judges."
wonderful. but what does that mean? how does that affect me? does that make my title more than if was given by a regular usca judge, or wda judge? would a regular SV judge be better than an SVF?
surely, you have been able to note the sarcasim in my typing by now,, but you seem to keep bringing up such little details while failing to see, or at least look at, the overall picture.
Bob, i think it is great that you support usca. i find it admirable that you defend them with all of your angst toward the akc. You keep pushing what you will and I will keep trying to open the eyes of others.
Elkoorr,,,, really. lemmings? or is it just a group of people who have had enough, and are wanting a change, seeing as how one group has basically forced them into it. oh, i know the responese im going to get,,,,usca didnt force anything, they gave you a choice. well the "other" club didnt put me in this position. usca did.
john
still a usca member,, expires 8/10 ,,
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Nia - what she was talking about is that if you have a DVG membership, because you are through them a member of AWDF, you can still trial your dog at a USA trial. She was not saying a DVG trial/regional etc. would qualify you for the Nationals. Just that you do not need a USA membership to trial at USA trials and would have to honor the AWDF membership vis a vis the DVG membership.
If something got passed that would preclude a member AWDF organization member's members from participating, I did not see the amemndment, unless the requirement to be a USA member to trial at a USA trial changed the honoring of the AWDF members from trialing ?
Can you clarify that since you have seen the language of the amendments? |
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To say WDA is the weaker team is not fair or accurate - no one is the weaker team and as it now stands not the weaker components of the combined team. Charlie Mezaros was 2nd in the WUSV and to my knowledge has never been a USA member. Another team members who has also been in the top 3, was Wallace Payne who that year was on the USA portion of the team, but in other years was on WDA portion, then there has been Jim Lempert, Dave Kroyer and more. Not nice to cheapen or lessen their accomplishments by saying they are the weaker team.
There is so much, or should I say was, of the best dogs crossing over politcal lines and making the team it really has made for a better team overall - other than Charley, I am pretty sure that everyone was a dual member. |
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| She SPECFICALLY said/asked that she could enter regionals or nationals as a DVG member with a great dog. I responded, accurately, to THAT statement. What she wrote was abundantly clear. Perhaps she "meant" something else and you are just more prescient than I am. :-) |
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Nia, she had pm'd me and I gave her the info - so yes, pre-knowledge.
Niahater - that is a bit mean spirited - The thing is, Nia is knowledgeable. But also she is a staunch loyalist to USA and that is her right. Her posts usually are not off on the facts. She believes USA to be the best club to belong to that comports to what she beleives in and is best for her. Conversely you have the right to post what you did too.
I have been chiming in quite a bunch too lately - just trying to get info out there that is unbiased and factual because I do beleive this amendment has jarred everyone. I have been a member of all the clubs for 11-12 years, and have thoroughly enjoyed what each has to offer. Some people feel more strongly about certain organizations, and that's OK.
Me, I just wish the amendment would be lifted and it go back to not being restricted because it is not going to end the perpetual posturing of which is the better club, with the better dogs, and just who is THE ONE protecting the breed. I am getting ready to post the Comparsion Chart of the FCI to the AKC GSD Breed Standard - there is really no difference and everyone can read the sources - I just cut and pasted and lined each item up for easier reading. Whoopee another thread! :)
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| Morning Kim: Will be looking forward to the charts |
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| Kim, You are the best! Thank you for all you do! |
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| Niahater-ROFLMAO!! What a sad, pathetic remnant you must be!! No wonder you hide behind an aliasso no one knows who you really are--after all, even YOU know who I am. LOL Thanks for the laugh!!! |
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Well, you know you're famous when you have a hate club!
"As The Database Turns"...
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| Yes, I see the troll just joined today, or, maybe belongs but doesn't dare post under another name because we would know who it is. Just ignore the troll. No one always agrees with someone else, but the comments by the troll are cowardly. |
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JEEZE, Nia, I don't know why you have to be so spiteful. And NO...I didn't say anything
"specfically"
If you're going to harp pointlessly at people, for Christ's sakes PROOFREAD.
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| Oh well, so much for forum etiquette. |
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Niahater, that's hilarious.
If you bother to pay attention, Nia writes about what she knows. She doesn't spout off about every topic!
I think I know who Niahater is.
If you spell that backwards it is Reta Hain. hahahhahahahahahahahahahahaa!!!!!!!!!!!
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John wrote:
"Elkoorr,,,, really. lemmings? or is it just a group of people who have had enough, and are wanting a change, seeing as how one group has basically forced them into it. oh, i know the responese im going to get,,,,usca didnt force anything, they gave you a choice. well the "other" club didnt put me in this position. usca did."
John, dont put words in my mouth. And yes... Lemmings. I am actual surprised that you reacted to it. If you read throughout the boards a common mentality becomes very clear: "Oh, if you go, I go too. If Wallace and Carlos go, then it must be really bad and I need to go too, to not look stupid." That, John, is the mentality of a lemming. I truly wonder how many actual have red the amendment for themselfs or go by whats said here or other fora? It also appears to be misunderstood by many that one cannot be a member of another org. But this is not so. You can be a member of any org on earth, just not of a competing GSD club in the U.S.A. And the only competing one with USCA is the GSDCA-WDA. At the end it is a COI.
So yeah, you have to make a choice now. Am I personally excited about it, absolutely not. But for me this is not a reason to leave USCA, and I am not familiar enough with the iddybiddy politics to base a decission on that part. For me it is how many trials are within a reasonable driving distance, in my area that would be USCA. GSDCA is present as well, but consists predominantly of hard core showline folks. And there are as many politics in that as well, and considered worse out of personal experience. Right now I feel comfortable with the folks I am with, and since we are an all breed club we will stay USCA for now, and so do I as GSDCA-WDA has nothing to offer that I cant get within USCA. It all comes down to the money I have to put in the gas tank and the amount of time I am able to spend on the road. But from now on I will more closely follow anything that comes up for a vote.
I like to see people think for themselves and make a decission based on what is of their best interest to be able to enjoy the sport. My goal too is to be way up there, and maybe we meet one day at the WUSV.... many ways lead to Roma.
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actually my choice, when i make one, will be based on what i feel is right for me and my dogs. just because multiple people feel the same way does not make them 'lemmings". for me, having as many possible choices is best. not taking them away.
john
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