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Classified: Blue Rising Star Black Label Junior
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REAL BITE OUT? (47 replies)
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Police dog:
DOG OUTS ON EQUIPMENT BUT HAS A PROBLEM OUT IN REAL BITE. LOOKING FOR INPUT. Looking for different training ideas.
Prager |
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i would love to meet the person who trains with you and takes "real" bites with a dog that does not out. ouch!
i have never done any type of this training so im afraid i dont have much to add. the only thing i can think of would be to train the dog to auto out when the bad guy hits the ground?
john
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No, I know how to train that. I am just looking for different ideas. Often Police dogs out fine on equipment all day long. But in the real life bite the adrenalin kicks in, the eyes turn green and then there is a problem. I have found out that dogs who are "game" who got before hard time from bad guys by getting kicked , hit and so on tend to get big adrenalin rush and have hard time out.
I know "Out" is an obedience and we are trying to simulate the stress during training to get the adrenalin up and do it on hidden sleeve and so on. I am just looking for ideas. I have done dogs for 42 years, but am not above to learn more.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com |
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Hans,
I have some experience with that situation. My dog for example is very clean outing with equipment, however a real bite is a very different situation. Once a patrol dog has it's first "real bite" it quite often changes the mindset of the dog. The first bite is often not the best "real" bite and the dog gets better with experience. Obviously, the first time a dog bites someone for real it does not taste, feel or smell the equipment, this is a new experience. Instead the dog "tastes" the person, feels and smells the fear and andrenaline in the person and handler. It escalates the drive and the aggression. When a dog gets more experienced and has more "real" bites each one is usually harder and more intense. Dogs that have encountered bad guys and gotten real bites and sensed the fear, and adrenaline often track suspects better.
Once a dog has had several street bites and has been in some violent confrontations it is likely to not out as easily. This is not unusual. Many dogs need to be "lifted off" suspects on the street. One thing I would recommend would be to make the training as realistic as possible by using hidden sleeeves, suits and muzzle work. The training needs to be very physically intense for the dog and challenging, then be ready to out the dog. You must have a method in place to out the dog whether it's a long line with 3 rd party corrections or an e-collar. The out must be taught correctly first and the dog must understand it. These types of dogs can never be allowed to get dirty in training and the handler must always be ready to enforce the out.
I can see John's idea of an auto out while the decoy is on the ground, however, I don't like the auto out for Police dogs. I don't even like it for SchH dogs any more. A police dog should not out until told to out, IMHO. They are some who feel it should out when the subject's stops fighting, I don't agree with this in a real world setting. I want my dog to "hold" the bad guy till I am ready to out him. When I have control of the suspect or I'm in a position of advantage behind cover I may command my dog to out, not before then.
Obviously, the not outing on a real bite is a control issue. I would work the dog on a suit and command out when the decoy is still moving and fighting. I want my dog to be able to out any time he is told. I would have the decoy freeze, command "hold em" and then the dog doesn't out, after a few seconds the decoy fights again. The dog remains on the bite the entire time. So the dog has a "hold em" command to stay engaged which is clear and an out command to disengage which is clear.
I give the suspect the following commands: "Suspect stop fighting my dog, stand still," the decoy freezes, this is not an out command but a prepatory command for the out. The dog mentally knows that another command will follow which may be out or may be "hold em." Then when I'm ready I'll command out and I'm ready to enforce it.
I would do a lot of muzzle work where the dog engages the decoy, and fights hard. Then you "out" the dog and command platz while the dog is in close proximity to the decoy, i.e. laying on his chest or back, between the decoys legs. The dog must platz and remain calm or it is strongly corrected. You can then give the "packen" command and the dog can engage from the platzed position on top of the decoy. This type of control will go a long way to maintaining the out on a street bite.
The dog learns to disengage and realizes that he can reengag |
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My post was cut off:
The dog learns to disengage and realizes that he can reengage when given the command to "packen" and still maintains his intensity. This gives the handler the ability to turn his dog "on and off." Once the dog has this type of "tactical" obedience and control the dog quickly learns when it is ok to engage and when he needs to control himself. I like the muzzle work the best for this. There is no equipment to smell and it is safe for the decoy. With the muzzle you can really fight the dog hard and make the training strenous and stressful for the dog. Then with the elevated aggression you train at a higher level, safely. The dog becomes more powerful and under more control at the same time.
I mentioned in a different thread the apprehension my dog had last Saturday night. I was chasing a suspect from a buy / bust operation and I cut him off with my car in a parking lot. I had ordered the suspect to stop running and get on the ground several times and he refused. When I stopped my car, I jumped out and took him to the ground, I looked up and my dog was jumping out of my car headed to me and the bad guy. I ordered "platz" and the dog downed next to me with his head on the bad guys shoulder, his nose next to the bad guys left ear. The dog just stared into the guys eyes not moving, not barking or growling. I told the guy not to move or he'd get bit and I guess the guy didn't believe me and pulled his left arm and got tagged. I "outed" the dog and the guy moved again and got tagged again. Then the guy stopped moving. Luckily, the guy stopped moving the instant he got bit and my dog held his upper arm with a very full hard grip. Which minimized the damaged, had the guy fought or tried to pull away it would have been a very bad day for him. I was able to move my dog back about 3 feet to facilitate handcuffing the suspect.
My dog was kicked in the face during a confrontation back in March and he didn't want to out off of that guy. We have worked on it since then. The best way to simulate the stress of the fight, IMO is with the muzzle.
Jim '
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| Excellent post Slam. Very well articulated. Wish there were more LE with your mind set and understanding dogs, priorities and the reality of the dogs role in dealing with bad guys. It is a tough world out there and it takes good balanced dogs as well as LE. You can see the difference in a dog taking a real bite his first time, then second time as opposed to training bites. They know what is real, they are very intuitive in this regard. Often the problem is on the first bite, especially if social aggression was not incorperated in training properly. LE has many fine dogs available to them today, unlike the days when it was donations from breeders that had crap dogs. Lots of good info, Thanks |
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you guys make me sick and i want to quit dog, most of people here should they are 40 years in dog they havent learn any thing they will never learn,
out mean out
juesus christ |
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I agree that probably the most realistic training you are going to get with fighting is the muzzle. I would add not to forget to occasionally include simulated cover officers and all the shouting of commands to the bad guy since those are also present on many scenes. Train as you fight.
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I agree out means out, on duty is on the job training. Training is ongoing, at least it should be.
Same goes for officers. Experience is lessons learned or it's supposed to be.
For the sake of survival one must learn very quickly, ask any soldier from any war about those first lessons learned.
And this dog jumped out of the car ?
Was this the proper use of the K-9?
Was the suspect found guilty of a crime?
Did the suspect need medical attention?
Hans,
A dog biting a man in a suit who knows whats going on is an Apple, A dog biting someone for real is an Orange.
It looks, smells, sounds, and feels completely different.
Experience and proper training is what makes for a proper out, adrenaline or not.
Finally, a dog is not a robot, they have a mind and instincts regardless of training sometimes it gets personal.
Thats where the handler comes in.
Sometimes on the job training is all there is. Training should not be just an exercise performed, it must be lived.
I don't think you need a different technique, just a real life training field with real life players, and a Trainer who knows whats needed.
More training Hans thats your answer.
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Olskool, Thanks!
Hans, your welcome.
GSDsch3v, good point.
Cliford, what can I say...Except to maybe correct your spelling. It's Jesus Christ.
Wow, "out means out." That was a big help. Perhaps you could elaborate on that statement. Please, tells us how you would correct this. I'm sure many of the dogs you have bred are currently working as Police K9's. Please, let me know how you handle this issue and what you have done when your dogs have had a real bite?
Two Moons,
The dog came out through the open cage and open front door. It was an excellent use of the dog and he performed as trained and expected. My role was to apprehend any subjects that ran. When you are doing a buy / bust for ounces of coke you generally aren't playing with nice guys.
Was the suspect found guilty of a crime? This happened the other day, no one is convicted that quickly. Medics were called for the guy and he was treated. He praised me and the dog and told the Narcotics Sgt what a great dog I have. He was very impressed with the way the dog outed; actually he mentioned it several times. He made it a point to thank me and the supervisor.
What's your point with the questions? Just being philosophical? I'm in K9, I have a dog as a partner. A well trained dog. If I go hands on with someone he goes too. The guy was ordered to the ground 3 times and ignored my orders and continued to run. I had to put him on the ground and he was told not to move. Drug dealing is a risky business.
I don't think you need a different technique, just a real life training field with real life players, and a Trainer who knows whats needed.
Hey, if you know any of these real life players who are willing to take a bite for real let me know. I'm having some difficulty finding some out here for training.
Jim
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LOL....
I knew that would bring you back around.
Hey you got the real life guys right there to train on.
And yes, you could get shot dead in a heart beat....
I love your stories.....
My answer to Hans is still more training.
Moons. |
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For a minute there I thought you were the Internal Affairs Supervisor. He was actually good with everything and how the dog performed.
Jim |
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| yes go by the bad spiling you now what i mean |
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Nope,
Just an armchair quarterback.
The muzzle idea makes sense.
In real life every situation is going to be different, it will always be a learning experience.
Moons.
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Prager,
First and foremost you have to have control. I want my dog to out no matter what he is shakeing when I say OUT!
I don't train a dog to bite without having Good control. You can not call a bullet back to a gun no more then a dog back from a living animal or human without control.
There is a big difference in the screams of agony then the screams of a padded decoy!
I like Slamdunc's advice and I'm sure he has used it well. I have used some of the same as well as similar techniques in the past and others with good success.
Here is another you may try when training. I use multiple decoys at times to work dogs for sentry work and PPD's. We do not work on the outs on sentry as much but the dog must learn to release at the end of the fight and re-attack a second decoy or the decoy will engauge the dog.
On PPD dogs we use the out -platz on a decoy that freezes before impact to re-enforce control during training. This is to teach control after the send and without a bite. We also use out-sitz for release of the decoy after he stops moving, and just that quick another decoy is deployed to refocus the dogs energy.
These can be muzzle attacks alternated with undercover sleeves. It will deffinately make the dog think when you out him if another person is coming his way to be alert to the OUT. Get the new guy that wants to fight.
I think some dogs that are very intense think of the OUT as get ready for the next guy. The main thing is to keep the dog thinking and not to get into a routine. Keep mixing the game up as much as possible. Fine tuning from new experiences also helps keep a dogs attention.
In sport training there are alot of people that train in a routine. Street dogs,Sentry and PPD dogs have to learn there is no routine. It is always changing or he may not be ready when needed.
just my thoughts, mahon
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In my exerience, a good tough dog, in a real live fight (suspect activly fighting) the dog is not going to out. They have to be "hard outed".
Once a dog has had this kind of fight, outing becomes a problem throughout the dogs career. Yes you can clean it up in training, but when it comes down to the real deal again. They ain't gonna out.
"Out means out" is a sport trainers and/or training mindset. The real deal is different. I had the same mind set when I was a "sport trainer" before I gained a little more experience in police work.
Now a caveat for the one's who will tell me I am full of it and they have/know all these patrol dogs that out on live bites every time......
1) We may have a different opinion on what a real tough dog is.
2) Remember I said "activly fighting"
I believe every patrol dog should wear an e-collar while on duty. My friend had an equipment vendor custom make a leather collar that enabled the e-collar reciever to be attached and not seen. Great idea that has worked very well for the numerous departments he trains for.
Me personally, if I had a dog out on command with a fighting suspect, I would take a serious look at the dog. But my standards and what I want/expect in a patrol dog are pretty high.
Jim---
I think you and I understand each other......
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Mahon,
Interesting ideas, I do like using multiple decoys and we don't do it enough. You have reminded me to do it in our next training session.
Gard,
I'm with you and I agree.
Clifford,
That's it? No advice, no words of wisdom?
Hans,
If you want to get the dog's adrenaline up on the hidden sleeve; add gun fire. Have the decoy, handler and an additional cop use blank guns. I guarantee the addition of gunfire will escalate the aggression in almost all police dogs. Better yet, if they have access to simunition that will up everyones adrenaline and that will translate right to the dog. Pm me if you like and I'll offer some more suggestions.
Jim
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Hi Jim, you are very logical in your steps with training, it is clear, cut and dried. IMO the handler and the dog trains their brains in a controlled environment.
Always,
Cee |
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I would like some clarifcation on this.
When the dog is active on a bite, eyes are in the green state, do you really expect the dog to hear you? There is nothing you have to do to bring him out of it a little to get him to hear you? Is this not part of the reason why the "bad guy" has to be still, allows the dog to "come down a little" so he can take direction. |
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A good tough dog would not out no matter what is a wrong statement.There are always exceptions to the rules but they are never the norm.You want to know if a real police dog and i say real because there are alot of police dogs and handlers are shit as well,ask Mike dhiel about Bronson,that was a real dog and ask him if that dog outed in real situation or not.
Also ask Kevin Sheldhl about his real police dog CJ.whether he outs or no. There are noumber of reasons a dog might decide not to out on an any given day.
Hans, i am more interested in finding out what would find an interesting or new method considering you have been in the game for more years than i have been alive.Have a nice one. |
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Clifford, you wrote:
come on guys,
well, come on Clifford.... I see you have ads for dogs for sale. Please, let me know what training methods you use and give an actual suggestion. How many of the dogs that you have bred are currently working as Police K9's? Rather, than giving obnoxious comments why don't you add something usefull to the thread. You certainly have strong opinions, I'm just hoping they are based on some actual experience. Please, enlighten us.
A good tough dog should out from a real bite. Every police K9 should out in all situations. However, there are times when the dog is actively engaging a subject and is kicked, hit and assaulted. When you add pain of an actual fight, adrenaline, fear and rage from a subject the dog also becomes enraged. Dogs do not understand the use of force continuum and they don't understand that the fight is over when the guy complies or is handcuffed. Those are the rules that the police handler uses, the dog's rules of engagement are slightly different(in the dog's mind). The dog may not feel the fight is over and may decide it wants to keep fighting. Things are not always that clear cut in an actual violent encounter for the dog. If you understand the dog's temperament, especially the mindset of a hard, civil dog you wil be able to see my point.
With that being said, there are some dogs that are so hard they won't out in sport work. These may be very good dogs, but they can't be used even for SchH competitions. This is not a training issue but a temperament issue. So, where do these dogs go....to PD's as K9's. Some become SWAT dogs where the out is not even trained. Many European countries have highly trained dogs that are deployed to strictly find and engage a bad guy, there is no out. The handler lifts the dog off when the suspect is in custody, then a muzzle goes on the dog.
In a perfect world the dog engages on a real bite, fights hard and takes the bad guy to the ground. The bad guy gives up then the dog outs on command and guards the suspect. We all train for this and this is our goal. I can tell you from first hand experience, it doesn't always go this way. Things don't always go as planned in a dynamic, fluid, volatile real life situation. You plan and train for all the scenarios you can think of and something on the street is always different, new and challenging. You won't encounter this problem until you actually have a real street bite and the dog doesn't out. Then you train and train some more, until you correct it. The training needs to be on going and very intense at times. The training needs to be more scenario based for police K9's and varied. The dog needs to be exposed to new problems and given the opportunity to solve them and come out with a new learning experience and confidence.
For those that think there dogs will out cleanly in every situation I'd like to see it. I'm not being obnoxious, just with the experience I have I know funny stuff can happen when working with dogs. Even the best trained dogs. Add some fear and rage on the dogs part combined with a deteremined opponent most dogs will opt not to stay in the fight. The ones that do, may not be so quick to out the first time when told. The good dogs are the courageous ones that feel some fear and fight through it regardless.
JMO,
Jim
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| Slamdunc, well said and informative.Thanks.Have a n ice one. |
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Fascinating discussion!
Jim, thank you for providing your 'real world' perspective!  |
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| Cliford if the only experience you have is with the kind of dogs you are selling no wonder they out no matter what situation. LMAO |
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| And I will second Jim and Gard, if the dogs outs in a real situation fast and every time, I don't think he is that much into it to begin, dog like that I would not consider calling tough, or one that I would love to have when shit hits the fans. |
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Let me hit on another point alot have probably missed in the debate. When training it is up to the trainer and helpers to make training as real as possible to the REAL LIFE situations that you may encounter.
For example how many have had a heated argument with the hepler in front of the dog? This is set up ahead of training with your helper. Start out with dog at side or a distance, helper approaches and one word leads to another and really gets excited and heated.
How long does it take for the dog to react? How does he react? Does he over react? Then do it again at another time and place with adrenalin flowing shouting the hole nine yards gunfire the full meal deal.
Dogs that have to think and react are well trained dogs. Dogs that just have to bite are not.
Have I trained tough dogs that will kill you if you cant handle them? Yes
Have I been ate up with hundreds of punctures? Yes
Are all dogs capable of being 100% contoled ? No
The next Question is for the trainer to decide can I and will I make sure that I wont train a dog to attack that I cannot control?
In the 1960's and 70's dogs did not qualify for the department that where not civil to non threatning civilians.
He would flunk out if he was considered a threat to the general public.
Soundness and guts generally come together in the same package.
Crazy out of control and weak minds generally come together in the same package.
just my thoughts, mahon
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out mean out
Well, indeed, it does usually. What I find amazing is that many, even after 40 plus years in it, haven't figured out that bite means bite. |
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I have read here many interesting ideas and some wise ass cracks. Mainly, what I was looking for was to stimulate some interesting, intelligent and helpful comments. Sometimes it helps me to hear this or that and say to myself ; oh yeah, I have not tried this for a while, or this is good point , I'll try it in next session. And as I said I still want to learn. Mainly I am interested in point of view of K9 cops and other trainers who are not jaded and who do the same type of training as I do . Train dogs for real world. I am training dogs for police (besides many other purposes) but I am not a cop. I do sometimes "ride alone", but it is not enough and it is good to hear from the guys on the street. Like Jim, Get a real dog and others. I tlak to many cops about training all over the world. I ask them and they ask me. Also I want other people with the same interest as mine to learn too and last but not least to have an interesting topic here. The day I will loose interest in what others have to say about dog training , I will quit dogs and, and,.... go work in Seven eleven. There is always room for improvement and I still want to breed and train the best dogs for real world. If it is family protection, police patrol, sentry of SWAT or Search and Rescue. So thanks for all of you here to put in your few cents worth. Thank You!
For the sake of working GSD!
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com |
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Jim,
You and GARD have made really good points. I train and place dogs with PD's and there is no absolutes. There are great real dogs that will out in real engagement and there are real dogs that will perform(out) depending on the intensity of the altercation and the handler's vibes. Some dogs will not out in real situation at all. This can be due to lack of training or this can be due to personality composition of dog and foundation work. Many police dogs are not well maintained trainingwise after they graduate from school and hit the streets. AND some officers like the type of dogs that they have to manually take dog off the perp and don't try to "correct" this. I have seen examples and instances of all of these type of situations. In answer tp Prager, I think the first analysis goes to the temperament of the dog in assessing why the dog won't out on real bite. From there you can ascertain if the "fix" will keep the dog a top performing dog(whether it is LE or PP), or whether the fix will create a new dog.JMO |
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Gustav,
You make very good points.
And as I have said, training should continue after class is over, on duty, on the job.
Mahon also makes some good points about control, and civilians, and intelligence of the dog.
Then there is when, when is it justified to release the dog on a suspect?
No two suspects are the same, the threat is not the same.
A lot of difference between a running teenager and a violent suspect known to be dangerous.
I think control is very important.
And training should be ongoing.
Moons.
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Mahon,
Thanks for bringing a key to training that I think is often missed today, at least in what I see. Agitation starts in the head of the agitator. It starts before the session begins when one puts themselves in the role of the bad guy. This cannot be taught and it has driven me nuts trying to teach it to others. Either you understand/feel it or you do not. you must throw off all inhibitions. Your mind set is at least as important as what you do. It is psyching yourself up and letting the dog know it is real. The key to good training/agitation is to make it as real as the real thing and that is in the head and heart, not in the body. The body will follow if the mind set is correct. I used to work myself up before I came in contact with the dog and when I got goose bumps and could feel the fight and challenge within me then I was ready to deal with the dog.
If you watch ultimate fighting you will see that the battle begins during the refs instructions to the combatants. It is the glare down, the fight and pumping up of each man in the others face, revealing confidence and dominance. Shouting or anything else is only as good as the heart behind it. Too many are taught methods when what is needed is the right attitude, the method will unfold in the process. Dogs will know the difference in the training and the real, it is the job of the agitator to put himself in the real.
I believe good agitation is a lost art for the most part. My blood pressure goes up thinking about it. I used to live for bringing out the fight in the dog, and once you do this everything else falls in place. Obviously I am not talking about a new/green dog, it has to be worked in as the dog grows/exhibits confidence.
Thanks for bringing this up. |
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At the end of the day,there is no comparison between a decoy with all the pedding screaming from a dog bite and a bad guy who is got no pedding and blood is comming out of him and the way the body reacts to real pain you are sensing.
And if there is a decoy who is that good of an actor,i say you my friend are in the wrong freaking buisness,move to hollywood.
Still whoever thinks that a real dog would not out you got more learning to do.Have a nice one. |
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Held,
If you were referring to me, first I would not move to Hollywood as that is acting or pretend land. I was not talking about acting, I was talking about a mindset which is not acting. Sorry you do not get this but I know what I know and I know the fight I have brought out of dogs. Ultimate fighters facing off are not acting, they are pumping themselves up to a level of dominance and it is real, not acting, it is a state of mind and the dog does see this. Because you have not experienced this, you would not know however.
You have a nice one. |
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I have owned only two dogs that could bite in a real situation...When I worked in Prague as a security guard I had a dog that searched traines. If the person stood still this dog would just sit there and looked quiet pretty. If you moved all the hell broke loose. I had to teach the dog to mark with bark ( bark and hold). The second dog bit whatever he found in the traines.. that dog was a liability. Both dogs I just chocked out. One of the dogs had his head shot off by a fugitive, leg bite (my fault, bad traning) .. never incouradged leg bites since.
This dog I have I know he is capable of biting, not using him since I am not working as a K9 handler anymore. I just do muzzle work.
I have never required outing on a person, I did not want the dog somehow out on a man just in case. Weird huh?
pack |
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| I don't know maybe it's just my view and maybe it is wrong, but if I send my dog and he bites I don't care as much if he outs or not, what I really care about is weather I can recall him before he engages. Kind of the same when someone picks a fight with me, most of the time I stay cool, and wont fight till absolutely necessary, but once I start I don't finish till the person is unconscious or not capable of continue the fight. I would never give the aggressor chance to regain his grounds, balance I would make sure he can't continue to fight. |
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| Not referring to anyone,just making a general statement.You can be a legend in your own head,but it does not mean that you really are one.A real fight is a real fight everything else is not.Not sure how someone can not understand that.Really iot is just common sense.Have a nice one. |
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olskoolgsds,
Makes a very important point about an agitator, especially in protection.
He must play a part, a role. It must be convincing.
Its been a very long time since I trained a dog to bite and protect, but it starts with the first impression.
I used the real deal for initial agitation, sacking, and a flanking can only be done once if done correctly.
The person you pick to do this must be real in my opinion. Someone you would not invite over for dinner.
Worked well for me, and I based much of this on some of Koehler's methods.
This person did not come from the actors guild, I believe I found him on work release...... and it was cheap for what I got out of it.
A wise choice is very important.
The out is as important in my opinion as the going in.
You must have both period.
Moons.
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Any time you are trying to duplicate a real situation,and agitation is a decoy 's attempt to make the fight look real to a dog you are not really going to go in and start hitting the dog in the head as a dog might experience that in a real fight with someone,is an acting role a decoy is fulfilling.
A real fight is a real fight no matter how you look at it and a good decoy is the one who can try to immitate as close to the real thing as possible without starting a real fight with the dog while you are tying to train it. Have a nice one. |
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Teaching the fight, what a human with hands is capable of is best done in play while the dog is a pup.
Its a good place to teach the out as well. Hell its the best time to teach many things.
Later...... I suggest the muzzle, or full gear head to toe.
Legends know these things.
Yeah everyone have a nice one.
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Too Moons,
is this according to Koehler or according to you? Have a nice one. |
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Held,
Is what according to Koehler?
Be specific.
How I raise a pup is pretty much my own way.
What is it you want to know?
Moons.
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Jim, thanks for the mini-lesson, well articulated and with useful real life examples. I have two good friends who are experienced K9 trainers (25+ years each) and have trained many successful K9s over the years as well as problem-solved K9/handler issues. They both have different approaches and I have learned quite a bit from them. Yours was a nice review. Sounds like you have a good dog. Snaiper, GARD, OldSkool, good info (apologize if I forgot anyone who gave good advice, I enjoyed reading it).
We do everything we can to challenge the dogs but know matter what, there is always that occasion when the dog won't out because of adrenalin or pain, whatever, the important thing is can handler and the dog recover and continue to work well? Sounds like you have all have that under control.
I love to watch the dogs problem solve during novel situations like multiple officer take down of a suspect with the suspect fighting, you can see the dog track the bad guy and figure when its safe to grab on (yes, everyone is protected), we've even trained dogs to go into the water after suspects, sprayed hoses at them during chases and take downs, thrown things at them, argued in front of them to see how they handle the escalation, do team take downs (2 dogs), whatever is novel and might throw the dog off stride (without damage to the dogs). Anything to shake up the routine and get the dogs thinking and problem solving. We work on obedience, especially as a firm foundation, but when the dog needs to think for him/herself (i.e. handler in trouble, etc), we know the dog can and we trust them to make the right choice, like your dog did jumping out of the car to help but not bite
(I would have paid to see that picture, dog's head on suspect's shoulder ). I do enjoy when good information is shared for educational purposes. Keep it coming.
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Nothing takes the place of a dog biting flesh, nothing takes the place of someone trying to do serious harm to the dog, or really involved in the fight, these are all true principles. It is also a true principle that the more real you make it, the more you engage a dog and challenge him to the limits, as far as you can go and as creative as you can be and with as much attitude as you can bring, the better it is in preperation for the real deal. The transition will be less traumatic.
Too many trainers out there in private sector and even LE that do not challenge the dog to the max. Too many not using muzzles, hidden equipment, true AGITATION (in other words piss him off) a wide range of scenerios or as we used to say situationals and the dog goes limp in a pursuit or defense. I like hot dogs and that means leaving them hot. And IMO this is common sense, not rocket science. Toooooo many methods, formulas, and mechanical means and not enough heart in the work, JMO. |
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Mindhunt,
I should have read your post before posting. You said it far better than I . I love this type of training, this is what it is all about. This is what gets the blood flowing. |
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