Questions, Long winded but I appreciate any input from the GSD experts on here - Page 4

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Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 07 July 2020 - 11:07

@ ValK - Well I'd basically agree with you on that point.
Except that presupposes it really was unacceptable behaviour, and none of us was there to see it.

Dog may just have got her nose above the counter, from the description; she may not have leapt into the air and ended up standing on it. She may also not have been bouncing around 'uncontrollably' - in which case the owner (OP) would need a crystal ball to know the Trainer (or anyone) was going to find it unacceptable, and train against it in advance.

Making judgements about how bad a thing is, or is perceived to be, can be a 2-way street.

What I said about permissions and other peoples' dogs still stands; granted the dogs should be schooled to behave sensibly around new people from a young age, but that does not excuse the behaviour of the Trainer, who - being human - ought to know better. By all means protest a dog's behaviour to its owner; by all means warn what you are likely to do to the dog if it happens again; but don't just raise a hand to it in reflex.
 


by NatureDragon on 08 July 2020 - 01:07

GSCat, thanks good points.
My puppy is not changed at all in her attitude yet during her first heat. She is just as playful and herself as usual. She is super social and always has been. I wish she was more aloof, but she isn't
There are some good AKC(where dogs learn to compete in AKC obedience) obedience classes around, hopefully they will be open soon. I also found a PSA club, so will check that out. I've never done bite work with her yet, but it's in her genetics so perhaps she will be into it.

Hundmutter, she didn't leap up onto the counter..lol, just jumped up to reach him because he was standing behind it. He told me to just let her go free, so I didn't have her on lead. She just did what she normally does when she greets people, she is kind of an 'in your face' and very forward dog. That is why I always have a leash on her so she doesn't jump on people. I thought maybe he just wanted to see if she would stay next to me, or go and explore around his office, I had no idea he was going to punish her for being her. He didn't ask me beforehand what she did, or may do, off lead in a new place meeting a new human. I didn't mention the other things he did, but it seems that he wanted to dominate or intimidate her for some reason, I don't know why. Anyway from what I got from answers, this is not typical of trainers of GSD.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 08 July 2020 - 07:07

What I think happened there, Nature Dragon, is ValK & I read your words "jumped up on the counter" two different ways. I personally would not be disturbed if a pup (and she is still within the definition of 'puppy', as yearling GSDs really still are) had popped its head above a counter I was standing behind. I think it marks natural curiosity, not over-friendliness, especially in a youngster. (That was what I took your OP to mean). I think perhaps ValK may have taken you too literally and thought you meant you let her off-leash and she immediately bounded up onto the counter ?

IMO people are either sensible or stupid when greeting dogs, if the dog jumps at them: they either come down to meet the dog and wait until it is settled before they make a fuss of it, or they shriek with laughter and start fussing the dog while it has its front legs in the air. The Trainer was setting your puppy up to fail by standing behind the counter, having asked for an off-leash introduction; actually its not a way I would choose to greet a new dog even if it was still on leash.


by Rik on 08 July 2020 - 08:07

ND, my aloof remark was an attempt at sarcasm.

I am only speculating, but I do assume the trainer wanted to judge the dogs reaction when not under control, advoidance, etc.

it seems like what he got was a very out going dog, not intimidated by new surroundings and apparently able to survive a thump on the head and not cower or retreat. regardless of the final outcome, that seems several positives to me.

that he is in the dog game/business and and had no better solution to this situational would tell me all I would ever need to know that he may be good, but probably not the right trainer for this type dog.

I have had young dogs jump on me, rake claws down my chest/back and quite painfully. One even jumped on my 6 yo grandson and damaged his eye besides clawing down hes face. in these cases we did come to a very quick and absolute understanding that these actions were not acceptable or tolerated.

good luck,
Rik

GK1

by GK1 on 08 July 2020 - 10:07

Training/working while in heat seems more of an issue for the nearby males (and their handlers) - if anything. Some dogs may have a more noticeable personality change during their cycle, but I have not noticed in mine. In fact mine was active through pregnancy and right after whelp. I think females get undermined due to this biological necessity, and underutilized in the working world because of it.

by ValK on 08 July 2020 - 14:07

Hundmutter
"perhaps ValK may have taken you too literally"

no one need to have rich imagination to figure out what had happened. at least 90% german shepherds in private possession at present, acts the same way. very much don't like this trend in the breeding of GS dogs who never matures. as i said earlier - 10-11 month dog isn't a pup and if dog wasn't kept on chain or isolated enclosure, at that point it must be familiar with rules. lot of people sees such behavior as very fun and cute but as Rick mentioned in his post, with such "greeting dog" an owner could be posed to legal troubles due to an injury, unintentionally caused by dog. leave alone that this type of dogs do not offer anything from point of usefulness to be applied in practical use.

by Hired Dog on 08 July 2020 - 15:07

Valk, the ONLY practical use for 90% of people today is that a dog fills a void, a companion, that is it, end of.
The dogs that never mature are bred to never mature because people are not interested in mature dogs, they want companions.
This trend will continue uninterrupted because it is driving the market. Yes, people want "greeter dogs" as you mentioned. The days of SERIOUS dogs are over, for the most part, and most people are happy about that.
Now, you and I and a few others can moan and complain, but, at the end, we must also choose a dog that closely resembles what we need for our purposes, move on and be happy.
You and I both know that there are a few people breeding dogs that are not the greeter type, however, you must measure that against where you live and what are you willing to live with, dog wise, every single day.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 08 July 2020 - 15:07

Anyway ValK what behaviour ('cute' or otherwise) DO you think the dog exhibited ? All I am 'seeing' with the OP's word picture is a dog which has been attracted to a man standing behind some sort of counter, and has gone towards him - presumably the counter top is above the dogs head, so the dog lifts up her front half so she can see over the top... and gets slapped on the nose for her pains. How is that doing anything but exhibiting curiosity ?

Certainly wouldn't run the risks Rik talks about. You'd prefer a dog which showed no interest in its surroundings ?

It is quite possible that the attempt to lick his hand was then an appeasement gesture because he'd slapped her, no more than that..

It is not on any par with some lapdog jumping up at me and hopping about on its back legs until I pay attention to it. I wish now I had not included that point in the same post, maybe I've muddied the waters !

And Hired Dog is right, most people nowadays (I'd venture to say throughout the history of the GSD) don't want a dog that treats everyone except its handler as invisible. IMO that is an exagerated version of what was in the Original Standard, and not the 'aloof' with strangers that was forseen, just a minority preference for a particular type of GSD.

 


by GSCat on 09 July 2020 - 00:07

I know my dog, how protective and civil she is, and what she's capable of and knows, so I'm extremely careful about introducing her to *friendlies* like a trainer or vet. Based on past experience with her, if a trainer in the situation that was described in this thread had told me to release the leash, I would have insisted on introducing them properly first to avoid any *misunderstandings* If the trainer was a decoy or other *stranger* trainer, that would be different, but there would be ground rules, I would be aware of them, and they would know something about the dog first.

I think anyone that has a dog that he or she is aware might exhibit any particular type of unwanted or unexpected behavior in a particular situation, whether friendly, nervous, civil, etc., should warn a trainer before releasing the leash. However, it is understandable if someone doesn't in the situation described, since an instruction was given by the trainer, there was a reasonable expectation of competence of the trainer, logical presumption that there was a particular reason for the instruction on the part of the trainer, and the dog was known to be friendly.

Someone, who purports to be a trainer of dogs, is supposed to be knowledgable about dog behaviors and training methods/strategies. A trainer is supposed to understand the whole reason someone comes to him or her is to correct unwanted behaviors and learn skills, and should be ready/understanding of both proper and undesirable behaviors. Punishing a potential client for not exhibiting behavior that is supposed to be learned through training that has yet to occur makes no sense at all. The only reason to treat the puppy as that "trainer" did (or similarly) would be to save a life or prevent grievous injury (human or animal). It is clear that neither the situation, nor the behavior, nor the combination of the situation plus behavior, fit these criteria.

I truly hope this individual, and his incompetence, attitude, and methodology, are not representative of the club with which he is affiliated/well regarded or the organization for which he serves as a judge 😣

And I hope you find a great trainer and club so you and your puppy can maximize your enjoyment of each other 😍 Let us know what you find/decide and how it goes 😍

[soapbox emoticon]
 


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 09 July 2020 - 03:07

GSCat : Indeed ! Could not agree more.

[Never seen an emoticon for a soap box, d'you think one exists somewhere ?]





 


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