Hyperkinesis in a working bloodline - Page 2

I am thinking possibly try CBD oil, otherwise personally with that list of problems I would retire him. Can't be too enjoyable to work with. Good luck

I have my reservations about posting , but often I feel that from the reading posts that there are many that truly wish to learn and also that many people do need guidance . - And for that reasson I do not feel holding back commentary is at times , the right thing to do .
Anyway ..
Many times I see threads with comments posted by those so called experienced people. Many times I see great commetnary but then again , at the same time, I see the whole crux of the point of the thread being missed.
First I wish to say ... there is no perect dog . They all have strengths and weaknesses . And what I am going to say is not a judgement or a criticism, but rather it is an evalutation .
Nobody .. just body point blank has come out and described this dog as it should be described. Nor has anyone definitevely fully addressed much beyond that .

There was a question in reference to the origin of the behavior of this dog : " is this due to genetics' .

No one has definitvely fully addressed or stated that answer . I will .... [ so novices will understand ]

Behavior always ,ALWAYS , has a learned /envornmental component as well as a genetic component. ALWAYS . So the real question should be : to what degree is the bevavior[s] that the OP describes is [are] attributed to either gentic or environent/learning? . Also to be asked - "are those behaviors within normalcy ? " . That is what needs to be addressed .
The foremeost consideration to consider as some poster alluded to is : " Is the dog first of all healthy [ and diet] " . If the dog has been vet checked or is otherwise healthy ... then we proceed . Assuming the Op's dog is healthy .... The answer to the question , " is this gentic in origin " , is simple :

This is a ' genetically unsound' dog. That simple. This dog is not normal . Not all , but quite a number of ghe behaviors the OP described are out of normalcy . Mnay of the threadfs the experineced peoiole have discussed AGGRESSIION . Many mnay times I would respond that there is normal and abnormal aggression . And the converstations went no where . The same applies to everyday living with your dog .. we have to learn to recognize not what is described as unallowed behavior but abnormal behavior . What the Op has described is abnormal , unsound behavior . I also talked many many times about the GS Mentality . That is related to the genetics and related to the behaviors . Behaviors originate in the neurological and mental make up of the dog baed on the genetics , yes .

BTW , hyperkinesis or hyperactivity [ different than observing a little bit of over activity -meaning the dog is high drive] is abnormal for a GS . Sporting dogs may present with very very intense active behavior but that type of behavior seen in sporting dogs , such as the , boing boing boing schizo franticness , is abnormality in a GS . The dog has " Unsound temperament , genetics" . Point blank !

For the newbies , this post is meant to impress upon you the fact that this dog cannot change what it is . You will not change the genetics of this dog . To the OP and as well as the newbies , IMOp this dog can only be managed. The way to manage this is : eliminate the need to have to correct tsome of the behaviors of the dog . That is to say ... don't even allow the behavior to present . One way or another make it impossible fort the dog to do them . For example , never allow the dog to jump on someone or teach [ one way or another ] the dog to not never ever jump on people. Not ever, never .

Correct previously written comment/post !!. Stop all the bite work with this dog . But that is not to say that many other things could not be done with this dog so that the owner and the dog have a fulfilling life. In that respect we don't retire this dog... IMOp, GS are not lap dogs , they must be busy ... Also I would give this dog something to do , some interaction to keep his mind and body busy . The easiest dog to live with are tired dogs !! . And one does not have to al;ways do sports with dogs. Gee , lord almioghty soome of the people on the PDB get so wound up tight about ' working dogs '. When d you folks ever just do what you do with your dogs in frral life .. simply live life withn your dogs ? If you do sport , thatbis ok .. but really , some of you folks get so obsessive compulsive. I would rather teach a dog to jump over something when I tell it to anything , anytime anywhere rather than have the dog jump and to etireve something when and where I tell it to , rather than aim ofr a few stupid points. for a few stupid points . To each their own - But , that is my prejudecied opinion . I write this not to be critical or belittle sport peopole , but I write with the intention of stressing: if you do not do sport that you can still have the most wonderful GS in the whole world even if it is unsound. That is my point. Whether the dog is sound , unsound , adopted at a shleter and so on ... I am am trying to encourage the OP as well as those people that relate to the OP . The dogs I most enjoyed working with , were those that were unsound canines.
Scent work is one avenue , and that does not imply only 'tracking' , For scent work is is very very low stress and fun for handler and dog. DFogs have to think and believe it or not : thinking endeavors requires a lot of energy too . As a matter of fact , even as a very young pup , one of the very first lessons my pups learned to do , was to seek me out and find me [ or other family members , especially children ] . They also learned a little later to pick up and retireve articles that I dropped. So hope this gives people ideas what they can do with usound dogs.

Interesting .. for years.. I see people piss and moan about this working and that working , Sch , IPO , this breeding line and that breeding line . Yet all these experts hardly ever, ever talk about , simply living and loving the dog in order to make the human canine bond all the better. And we cannot make better what we have or make better ourselves , if we first do not understand what we have and what best to do .

Response form the OP.

Thanks Centaurian for the insight on this type of dog. Your words confirm my observations about the bite work and it's effects in escalating the problem. I will keep tracking with him and try to devise other interesting things for him to do in order to keep him busy. Specially nose work.

He has a beautiful OB at the moment and could pass his BH however taking him to a training field excites him so much that he is difficult to rein in. I was able to build up his OB to it's present standard by training alone at home where the dog is less excited and can concentrate better. One thing I did notice today training him ( the first very warm day of the season in our region) is his lack of endurance in the heat as if the excitement + the excessive drive cuts into his endurance.

Thanks again,

G.

Koach So sorry for the post . I read and reread my post . I am absolutely positvely certain that I corrected any and all typos and phrases . I just realized - Much of the text changed after I pressed "submit post " . Somehow after I had made the corrections and had proofed the post , and after I sent the commentary , the text changed resulting in many mistakes . I think this has been happening a lot in my past posts !!!! . Anway .. if the reading was out of sorts .. that was not the exact text I wrote .

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1686557/pdf/canvetj00367-0050.pdf

an old article but you may find this useful

A trial run of a CNS stimulant may be beneficial. 

A good article: http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/can-hyper-dogs-become-happy-dogs?pageID=1.

Try exercising the dog vigorously before training sessions and keep the training sessions very short. Dog may be overstimulated by training due to inactivity/not enough exercise/not enough attention beforehand, so gets way too excited to concentrate or accept end of training/activity/attention (views cessation as punishment/unfair and does not understand why being "punished" when did not do anything wrong). Allow to run/play or go for walk after training to avoid this...

Gscat do u really think people have not tried that . We are not talking about and dog with to much drive or energy . We are talking about and dog that’s unstable in its own mind with little or no balance

Yogidog is right GSCat. Unless one has had or seen a dog like this it's hard to imagine what it's all about.

 

As the original poster I'll give you an update. Just one small sample of a day in his life.

 

Stopped all training for a week and then took the dog tracking as tracking is the exercise that stimulates him the least. Stimulation is what triggers these dog to go into hyperkinesis. As the tracking is done using food drops I will explain about the dog's food drive. It is not at all a normal high food drive but rather a maniacal and frenzied push to the food. One piece of kibble dropped on the floor will bring about knocked over chairs and upset objects as he spins his feet underneath his body in his anx to get to the food. Being fed regularly at the same time every day morning and late afternoon he salivates by the clock. Dog has to be brought to his dish on lead as he does not hear the commands given to him in the presence of food. We cannot give bones as he tries to swallow them. One lb of beef goes down in one gulp. So back to tracking. After track is laid and aged and I approach his car kennel to fetch him he starts a high pitch staccato barking that cannot be stopped no matter what method is used to bring him under control and yes, I've tried them all. Once he gets to the scent pad and is off the barking stops. His tracking is hectic but fairly methodical.

 

Another example is he frantically eats snow until he boats up to the size of pregnant female then is sick for the next few hours then when let out to pee just repeats over and over. So we muzzle him now when taking him out to do his business in winter.

Not disbelieving you at all, Koach, but my only direct experience is with one dog I thought was like this, on the 'work kennel' team, and we collectively decided to back him whence he came after a few weeks, on grounds he didn't 'fit in' and we could not dedicate enough time to try to bring him around. Don't know his ancestry, he was a 'rescue' - we found out why ! Have certainly seen a few hyperactive screaming Show lines owned by other people which seemed to come close to your description; we (the UK) had a spate of such dogs a few years ago. Seems people had the sense not to use them for breeding ! So this is no longer so much in evidence. [The individual dogs usually disappeared from the 80's/90's Show 'scene' without trace.]

 

But you say he does not just Tracking, but some good Obedience ? What I fail to understand is how you managed to get Obedience training into him, if he's so bad you still can't get him to sit quietly for his food bowl to go down ?

You don't tell us how old he is now, you just said about the bitework @ 14 months. - I wonder if he is going to mellow out a little, at least, as he gets older. Some other, over-active, dogs seem to. I hope for your sake and his, that he does mature away from this 'crazy' behaviour; sorry but I don't see how breeders could really give guarantees against this 'condition', as so much stuff that gets reported about 'untrainable' and 'vicious' small pups / young dogs is actually more likely the fault of some inexperienced, 'undogly', ownership among the general public.