What causes this working difference? - Page 15

I know some will think I focus too much on semantics, but I believe you have to have a consistent way to communicate about dogs. For example, I totally disagree agree with Duke that prey without other drives is play. I believe that play is play, period. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with biting a person. Prey drive is rarely going to be isolated and without other drives or emotional states when a dog is engaging a person in a real fight. Plus prey is more accurately termed predatory aggression. So emoryg says fight is a dog's desire to confront and dominate a person through aggression. Well what kind of aggression? Predatory aggression, frustration aggression, social aggression, defensive aggression? As I said, dogs don't function in a single drive and drives are constructs used to communicate about dogs. But people generally understand the motivation and emotional state behind these things we call drives. Predatory aggression (prey drive) can be very serious is some dogs. It is not play. It is used to kill other animals. Dogs with very high prey drive typically have frustration aggression when they can't get to the prey. Then there is nonclassical prey drive where some dogs come to see a person a prey, which is not very typical, but does occur. Those are special dogs and can defeat a person primarily through prey drive. Social aggression is an ideal form of aggression, but has largely been bred out of working dogs because of its potential liabilities. It is ideal because it doesn't have the potential for flight as defensive aggression does. And I am not saying strong defensive dogs are more prone to flight. I agree with Winkler and Raiser that fight probably isn't actually a drive because for a dog to be motivated to fight is counter to survival instincts. What some call fight drive is a result of other actual instinctive motivations paired with training, and the training has to be more than a dog winning a sleeve or never learning that people can hurt him, which is often the case I strictly sport training. I also think different protection sports contribute to selecting for dogs with different drive packages, often to the detriment of the breeds being suitable for police work. It makes more sense to try to break down an individual dog's drive package and think about what traits/drives motivate a dog to bite a person without equipment and stay engaged when the person is fighting back. Violence is also a factor. A dog can be violent and trying to inflict injury in prey, defense, and through frustration aggression or social aggression. These definitions don't change much, but rather people have different understandings of them. It is kind of like someone saying if you think Donald Trump is a good president, you are delusional. That is not a delusion, but an opinion. Saying your internal organs are rotting away while the person is in good health is a delusion.

Regarding Duke's comments that the videos put out by Koos showing a pup and a dog growling when pinched on the cheek while biting a tug and growling when attemting to take the dog's food, rather than using Duke's term of possessiveness aggression over food or a toy, I prefer the term resource based aggression. Minor differences, but I see possession more a part of prey and you could argue food and a toy are related to prey. Mike Ellis has a very good definition of what some refer to fight drive, although it probably isn't actually a drive.  He refers to competitive aggression and thinks dogs that possess this trait are the best type of dogs.  With competitive aggression, the dog enjoys the act of fighting the person and when they are pushed, they push back harder.  They don't tend to get unclear and hectic when pushed hard as in defensive aggression.  They tend to get angry, which again, decreases the likelihood of flight.

 

I am about done now LOL, first you say, fight is a drive, now you say its not,

I am saying prey without any other drives caractertraits is play, you say its not because its allways mixed with other drives

basically a dog biting in prey and staying in the fight in prey is nothing more than a dog playing tug-o-war, unless the dog has other traits kicking in, like dominance, agression etc

for the rest I hope you enjoy your dog 

So far, I am enjoying him. Thanks.

Semantics should be focused on. Otherwise communication breaks down.

Micheal‘s term ‚competitive aggression‘ sounds to me also to be a good one. I can see it as a type of characteristic...like in some humans that have the NEED to win anything and everything (no matter big or small), at all costs.

Anything Micheal says, I‘m all over it. Never heard him utter anything wrong, untrue or shaky.

IMO, he is one of the best teachers out there.

Jessejones
I did agree that that vid, as an evaluation, might be a good starting point...for someone that wants a dog like that.

it's not about "for someone that wants a dog like that".
as i said before - at that age pups have not yet much learned and act/respond the way their nature (genetics) dictate them to respond.
pup can show any specs - submissiveness, playfulness, shyness, boldness, dominance, unfriendliness, aggression, etc.
this will stay with pups for rest of their life, albeit during the grows and handling of pup with some effort can be masked.

emoryg
My definition of fight is quite simple; the dog’s desire to confront and dominate a person through aggression.  This is a highly desirable trait in the police dog.  These dogs are not common, as it is much different than a dog’s desire to dominate a helper wearing a suit or sleeve.

well, aggression not always turns into desire to dominate. plenty of dogs showing high aggression but in fact being fearful and quickly disengage physical contact, albeit might remain in proximity, continuing to show aggressive behavior.

Again, aggression is an oversimplified term. There are many different forms of aggression that are motivated by different emotional states. Typically, defensive aggression is more prone to be motivated by fear and contribute to disengagement/avoidance unless the genetics are good and the dog is trained to turn off the behavior of the person being bitten by training.