200 % on the mark Helmut Raiser quote - Page 3

Pedigree Database


by duke1965 on 12 February 2020 - 01:02

Klossbruhe, I see more dogs these days that carry sleeve and run, than dogs that show the "kill "behaviour, but then again, thats not what im talking about

@ charlie a good helper is not making the breedingchoices of the random people, and a lot of the good helpers today are "guilty '" of the process

by Hired Dog on 12 February 2020 - 06:02

Today's training reflects today's dogs, for the most part. I do not know of any agency today that wants "killer" dogs or dogs with "killer"instincts on its payroll.
I had a dog that had that instinct back in the 80's and he retired at 4 years old, even back then, when bites were prized and rewarded even, even then, agencies knew when to say "enough".
Kloss is correct in his assessment of what so called fight drive is, but, some people wont get it and still confuse play drive for prey.

Valk keeps talking about dogs with the desire to dominate and kill their "nemesis", even in peril of their own lives. Valk, my friend, the instinct to survive is very strong in all animals capable of clear thinking. Now, if you happen to own a sociopath, a dog that does not care about its own life and will gladly die, just to die, than you have what I owned back in the 80's as mentioned above.
These are dogs Valk, not humans who in the spur of the moment decide that death will be glorious and honorable and they died while defending their country or whatever.

Balanced dogs is what we need, ones who can get serious and do not view everything as a game, yes, not sociopaths or unstable dogs.

by duke1965 on 12 February 2020 - 07:02

hired, when im talking kill behaviour I mean the dogs that shake(kill) the sleeve after they won it, im allways saying we need balanced dogs, not idiots and not prey only, but must say that more and more vendors want to see civil behaviour where for many years, social was the magic word

by Hired Dog on 12 February 2020 - 08:02

Duke, I agree with you on needing more serious dogs, I have said that for many years as well. Indeed, social is the magic word when lawsuits are around every corner when you decide to utilize your dog.
I was not speaking of sleeve behavior Duke, that does not demonstrate any seriousness in a dog, but, balanced, as you said,m is the way to go, for sure.


by emoryg on 12 February 2020 - 08:02

A dog displaying fight drive on the training field paints a very different picture than what is displayed under real encounters. Very little fight drive will be observed in the actual bite scenario. Only a few dogs will display an actual pronounced fighting instinct once teeth meet actual skin. You’ll know it when you see it. The lack of fight on most police dogs is probably due to the abundance of prey training that is used in an attempt to train/trick the dog to bite.

Once the drive mechanics shift on a real bite, the dog quickly drops out (within seconds) of drive and becomes subject to varying displays of avoidance behavior. The four year old dog who crushes the suit or sleeve with his hard, deep grips in training, will soon look like an overwhelmed four month old puppy desperately holding on to a tug with his front teeth. Fight drive will be evident on the dog who looks at the suspect not as prey or as a threat, but as an opponent that he desires to dominate through his aggressive actions. And that is my definition of fight drive, a dog who desires to dominate his opponent through aggressive actions. I don’t credit fight with a dog’s prey drive, no more than I credit a dog who thinks a suspect is just an overgrown bunny rabbit.

However, prey is an excellent drive to exploit when training.


by Koots on 12 February 2020 - 09:02

So, what do people think fight drive is a sub-set (or part) of - prey or defence? Or do you consider it neither or both, depending on the situation? Does it stand alone? I can think of arguments for it being a sub-set of prey drive and at other times defence. The fighter going after an opponent (offence/prey) or defending oneself from the opponent (defence). Just wondering what others think.


by emoryg on 12 February 2020 - 10:02

First, forget about what a dog looks like while chasing, carrying or biting a sleeve or a suit. Also, forget about what he looks like while back tied in his harness with a decoy in front of him threatening him with physical harm. Remember, with rare exception the dog will not display the same commitment and determination in a real scenario. As such, fight drive should not be influenced by environmental components like location or equipment.

Now determine what would motivate (drive) a dog to readily enter into, sustain and escalate a violent physical confrontation (fight) with a person in a real encounter. What is the end goal of this motivation from the dog? Is it to kill or eat the suspect? Is it to protect himself from harm or scare away the suspect?

The ability to sustain and escalate are important concepts in the role of dominance. Just my own thoughts on the matter.

by duke1965 on 12 February 2020 - 10:02

wouldnot define fight as a drive, a drive needs to be triggered to kick in, so to speak, so what would be the trigger to make "fight " kick in

what (I assume ) people call fight, to me is prey/posession/ frustration, not willing to give up prey and "fight "for it

by ValK on 12 February 2020 - 13:02

Hired Dog

we seems somewhat have disagreements but this what is a different experiences and perceptions. i worked and owned that type of dogs with dominant nature but low/absent by the present day standard for prey and comparing those to what i see today, i can assure that if former dominance and stubbornness would be blended with present low threshold trigger for prey - it would be very dangerous and unpredictable dog.
i before mentioned that plenty of youngsters was rejected due to being low threshold of emotional trigger, which was manifested in sharp reactive response to slightest irritant. so i assume that dog from 80s, you had mentioned above, was this type and in my past that dog would end by being watchdog of some factory or warehouse.

you're very right about strength of selfpreservation instinct but even so its strength also has varying scale from dog to dog. final border selection test didn't use this aspect but we did and i still do this. when time was came to pick the pup for itself, that was first thing to find out in newly arrived litter and highlight that pup for itself.

did i ever seen the dog kill the human? of course not.
saying "dog attacking to kill" i mean mindset of dog during such attack.
sure, hunt motivation could produce kill but only on condition that object of hunt attack do not respond with overwhelming strength of own defense.
good example would be short video somewhere uploaded on youtube about interaction between some guy, who jump the fence of White House ground and mali dog of secret service. after the first kick the dog just backed off fight.
cause - the prey motive of attack and low selfpreservation threshold.

different example, somewhere previously i posted video the dog, deployed to attack the guy in white truck. being hard beaten to a head, dog continues fight.
another case, i was witnessed back in 80's - my friend's dog was knocked down by hit to head by steel shovel, immediately got back on feet and went back into fight and in fact win that fight.
do not know temperament of that dog in video but did very well know my friend's dog. absolutely confident, serious and calm dog, who didn't starved for attention and affection from humans, never begged to be petted or brown nosed even to his master. and such dog's nature with variations to some degree was in general typical behavioral expression for all those dogs.

would you classify my friend's dog as sociopath or unstable dog... because he didn't care in that fight about his own well being?

how would you evaluate the dog, who will not give rat ass about the person, pointed by handler as target for attack... because that dog become too busy by "shaking to kill" (dropped by attack's object) sleeve?

by Hired Dog on 12 February 2020 - 14:02

Valk, those are all interesting questions. Allow me to start with the last one first. That 80's dog, a Malinois, was THE most equipment conscious, or sleeve happy dog that has ever lived, however, he never once hesitated to try and annihilate a human when given the command. Sleeve or no sleeve, he would bite anything I directed him to, anytime, no questions or hesitations.
Was he a sociopath? For sure, he hated all humans equally and the hatred was real.
So, I have no idea how to evaluate a dog that will keep eating the sleeve instead of the suspect because I have been lucky I guess and never owned a dog like that, but, I have seen a few who did do just that.

I do not know your friend's dog, so I have no idea if it was a sociopath, it may very well have been, or it may not. Let me ask you though, how do YOU classify an animal that has no survival instinct? Again, an animal, not a human.
The video of the White House dog clearly shows a dog that should have never had that job, but, again, I do not know the dog or its training or anything else about it, but, I do know there is a video floating on YouTube about that dog and his handler and he speaks of how great that dog was and how he was awarded a medal for his heroism.

"sure, hunt motivation could produce kill but only on condition that object of hunt attack do not respond with overwhelming strength of own defense". Valk, its kind of hard to eat when you are dead, so, if your food is stronger then you, I would recommend that you find something else to eat that will not eat you first, but, thats just me...
Again, we are going back to self preservation and if every dog acted in the way you described, we would not have many dogs today because they would all be dead trying to over power something they clearly could not.

Without getting too long here, I also appreciate a tough dog, one that loves a good fight and even craves it when the situation warrants it, but, I also MUST have a dog that is clear in the head, something that one can live with daily.
Am I asking for too much? One last thing you mentioned that I am very curious about....the dogs you speak of, you said they lacked prey drive, is that correct?


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