by Hundmutter on 12 October 2021 - 02:10
by GSCat on 12 October 2021 - 05:10
I agree what a responsible breeder does depends on the purpose(s) he or she is breeding for. There's also places for both line breeding and mixes of GSD types, depending on the breeder's goal(s).
I wanted a female Czech WL GSD, preferably with Line 2 and Line 4 characteristics, for LE and real handler/personal protection. That's what I got, plus a little Line 5. Not to say that a DDR type, or other Czech lines, or a mix of types wouldn't have been capable for the intended purposes, because there are a lot of GSD capable of doing what I needed, but I simply prefer Czech GSD, especially Lines 2 and 4.
However, if I had been looking for a pet GSD without needing protection, or a therapy dog, guide dog, etc. I would have started by looking at WGSL, mixed with another type(s) or not. If for the latter two uses, starting at well-regarded kennels known for producing GSD suitable for therapy dogs, guide dogs, etc.
And if I had been looking for a skijoring or sled dog, I would have looked at racing line Siberian Huskies LOL
Looking at this from a breeder's perspective, if I wanted to breed good LE/military/serious protection dogs using my bitch, I'd look for a Czech GSD Line 2/4 stud with specific characteristics to build on her strengths and strengthen any possible shortcomings. In her case, among other things, I'd want a stud that produces larger offspring, including his female pups, because my bitch is on the small end of standard. If I wanted to produce lower drive dogs still suitable for LE/military/serious protection, I might look at DDR type studs. If I wanted to produce seeing eye dogs or therapy dogs, I wouldn't use my bitch because of her drives and civil nature. Etc., etc., etc.
The right dog for the right job. Just like looking for the the right breeder. There are many good ones out there, but some are a better fit for a particular buyer for any number of reasons.
by Hundmutter on 12 October 2021 - 09:10
by GSCat on 12 October 2021 - 22:10
by Hundmutter on 12 October 2021 - 09:10
And were I breeding I would much prefer to be aiming at selling to the informed buyer. That is why whenever newbies ask questions on here about whether the puppy they want, or have bought, always gets asked "What are you wanting to do with the dog ?" by board regulars. Not always a query that gets a sensible answer.
Buying or adopting a dog without any clue about what one wants/needs to do with him/her, is like buying a vehicle without regard to what one needs/wants. The chances of a mismatch are far greater than a good fit 🙁
by Hundmutter on 13 October 2021 - 02:10
Yep I agree that is true, to some extent even where we are talking about some toy-sized Utility breeds / mixed 'designer' dogs, just for family companions. I think it becomes imperative when we are discussing large active breeds of the working / field sports / hunting sectors. Simply on size alone, the general public sometimes do not recognise inherent dangers. Many seem surprised when the sweet little pup grows, ... and grows, and becomes such a big dog. With big teeth. But that is 'cos too many start from ignorance. This is not to say the dogs themselves are 'nasty'; but that the capability is there, along with potential. You can extrapolate this all the way up to differences in aptitude and temperament within the one breed. I have always had lovely Sheps I can 'live with', whatever the lines these have originated from - but each has had some quirk that because I'm experienced I could manage, but which may have become traumatic for some owners (perhaps because in their inexperience they have mis-managed it); you only have to read the Training & Behaviour Advice Groups on social media to realise what some of the innocents are going through. But they usually brought it on themselves, by not doing due diligence on basic dog-keeping in the first place; too often the first dog is an impulse buy - which also takes them into the realms of the exploitative greeders ! I've said before on here, I don't know what the answers are, it seems however much we try to get the messages across about knowing what you are doing and what you need, as well as what you want, that you really ought to prepare yourself and investigate all the issues, people still go on regardless.
Your analogy is accurate: you would not get an ATV if all you ever drive to are film premiers !
Okay, I'll dismount from my favourite soap-box now ;-)
by GSCat on 13 October 2021 - 06:10
by Hundmutter on 13 October 2021 - 02:10
Yep I agree that is true, to some extent even where we are talking about some toy-sized Utility breeds / mixed 'designer' dogs, just for family companions. I think it becomes imperative when we are discussing large active breeds of the working / field sports / hunting sectors. Simply on size alone, the general public sometimes do not recognise inherent dangers. Many seem surprised when the sweet little pup grows, ... and grows, and becomes such a big dog. With big teeth.
My, my Grandma, what large teeth you have (Little Red Riding Hood) LOL
by apple on 13 October 2021 - 12:10
When you speak of lines like line 2 or line 4, I assume your are referring to tracing a dog's parents' male sire line back to one of the so called six male sire lines. I really think that is largely marketing BS. A big promoter of this philosophy wrote in 2010 that line 1 descending from Hector von Schwaben was nearly extinct with efforts to bring it back. The sire and dam of my dog were both born over a decade ago and both of their male sire lines go back to Hector. The male sire line breeding philosophy is about as reliable as the CDC's and other of the US health institutes' guidance on treating and preventing COVID.
by Klossbruhe on 13 October 2021 - 12:10
As I wrote earlier, 32 years after the dissolution of the DDR and countless more generations of dog births, it is extraordinarily unlikely that there are any such dogs. And if there were, such breeders would have out Walter Martin-ed Walter Martin in the spurious art of inbreeding. The inbreeding would not only have been impermissible and incestuous, it would have produced very poor quality after several such generations.
From what I have been able gather from those posters who actually responded to the subject posed by the OP, the posters backed away from the claim that there were any actual DDR dogs but were referring to the way dogs were back in the heyday of the DDR, in other words, a type of personality.
And all this BS about lines...if you could breed for temperament...if...but it is not an exact science. You can breed for color, size and other physical characteristics, you can even breed to reduce diseases like HD or epilepsy but temperament. I believe it was Hundemutter who noted that in every litter there are different personalities. Science has not reached the stage of providing guidelines on how to breed for temperament. Breeding for temperament is a crapshoot.
So if you want a certain type of personality you can try and take two dogs with the temperament you like and breed them but the only way you will be likely to get a puppy with personality of the parents is to observe the litter at roughly 7-9 weeks. In a litter of say six or seven you might find one or two that exhibit the desired personality, you might get lucky and find the entire litter is like that (pretty unlikely) or you might be unlucky and find that none of the litter exhibit the desired traits. And, what about environment....it obviously plays a huge part. So unless you owned the father and mother and provide the same environment you could well get a different result with the adult dog. And consider this, very often the same dog with two different trainers exhibits different traits and responds differently. As for humans, we know environment plays a great role in the final result. Identical twins placed in different homes never turn out the same.
by Hundmutter on 13 October 2021 - 13:10
by apple on 13 October 2021 - 13:10
I didn't even think about the OP and DDR dogs because like you, I don't think there are DDR dogs left. There are dogs with all DDR lines but the DDR Wertmessziffer/rating system hasn't been used for decades and so-called DDR dogs are in name only. Plus, I think the original DDR dogs were overrated with some exceptions.