Bitches not getting pregnant - Page 3

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by ValK on 12 February 2021 - 12:02

Hundmutter
i was responding to your remark "that how many and what quality of puppies depends mainly on genetics, + good environmental management". genes are responsible not only for behavioral traits but for health condition as well.
think for moment - if raw meal and harsh environment do not have negative impact onto wild carnivores then why same should be harmful for domesticated ones?
i guess dog owners have become spoiled and lazy because of plethora of easy solutions from dog food industry. but can you tell for sure what contains those granules sold to you in bag, particularly if considering that quality control for dog food not even close to QC of food for humans.

Rik

by Rik on 12 February 2021 - 13:02

hund, you are correct, the exact wording was "Raw food is the last thing you should be feeding". I would like to see the evidence for this.

and raw in what manner. 100% lean muscle meat, I do agree is not optimal. but I really have not known anyone to do this.

I'm not a raw advocate, I always added raw, usually whole bone in, skin on chicken added to kibble, usually Purina Pro Plan. At various times I did use organ meats from a local butcher, but that was a PITA to do on a consistent basis. I also used raw eggs.

just a broad sweeping statement like raw is the last thing one should feed a dog, without any knowledge of how the other person is incorporating raw into the dogs diet, I disagree with. there are people here with a lot of experience, who know exactly the benefits or drawbacks of using raw, as well as people who may be in the learning stages.

so to cut it short, I'm waiting on any studies that feeding raw foods is the last thing one should do.

GK1

by GK1 on 12 February 2021 - 18:02

Cheap raw meat/poultry in big box market is filthy and loaded with additives, dyes, chemicals - and inferior to organic, grass fed, humane sourced etc. While dog might do ok (and whelp) on a Walmart raw chicken leg quarter tossed to her daily, I doubt it’s balanced nutrition. Same for mediocre kibble. More speculation than evidence as to which is more nutritious or safer. What’s the life expectancy of the wolf..4-6 years maybe? Raw feeding can be just as lazy and shortsighted as processed.


by ValK on 13 February 2021 - 00:02

GK1
when in 90s i moved to Canada, i used to buy big packs with regular ground beef because even being hungry, Ari refused dog's food in granules. thanks God back then it wasn't as expensive as its now and very often can be bought with sticker 50% off.
then i discovered small butcher shops. in processing meat they do have lots of byproduct, which is not consumable for humans but absolutely perfect source of food for dogs.
b.t.w. for pups/youngsters in club the similar byproduct from local meat plant was main source of food and i never saw any health problems for dogs from it.
as for nutrition and lifespan... who does calculation of nutritional value of meal for wild carnivores?

their life expectancy is allocated to them by mother nature precisely on the dependency of individual capability to remain in good physically active form. but wolves, living in capture under people's care, known to live quite longer than ones in wilderness.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 13 February 2021 - 03:02

ValK: I am not arguing against you in that better feeding coupled with better genetics produces better puppies in general. Even though that point does stray from the topic of this thred.

What I AM arguing about is that all raw feeding is a better feature in that management of stock than 'cooked' / processed feeding. Surely enough argument is being given here by others to back up what I said about raw losing any advantage by being done badly ? From owners who are not well informed about what needs to be added to meat to make a complete diet, with a balance of all the vitamins etc, to people buying and feeding low grade non-human quality and adulterated meat because it is inexpensive, there are many ways to cock it up.

Which by the way is true of diets for ALL creatures, including us ! Not confined to dogs, as there is plenty of research to show.

Like Rik, I can't wait for Jill to produce evidence here that "raw food is the last thing we should feed".  You tell us one dog of yours would never touch kibble, Okay, I can believe Ari preferred meat.  That doesn't automatically show that you knew enough to get him to eat enough veggies and carbs added in to the protein and fat to make sure he really got a healthy diet / everything he needed. That is not some fantasy of 'modern' dog-keeping, it is basic nutrition science, for all mammals.  There are also studies that show wolves and other wild animals get those nutrients from other things that they eat in the wild, things animals kept by humans don't get regular access to. They do not rely exclusively on 'meat'.

You also do not say why you offered him kibble as an alternative to raw meat, in the first place. Nor do you tell us which, and how many, varieties of processed dog food you tried him on before you were convinced you could only feed him the raw meat. You maybe just didn't find a brand of kibble he liked the smell of !


Rik

by Rik on 13 February 2021 - 10:02

hund, I guess I have a different idea of raw or assumed everyone else did. I have not known anyone or seen it recommended anywhere. that meat only be fed there is always vegetables, etc. cooked and added or at the least kibble added to round out the nutrients.

if jill was meaning feeding just meat not good, I agree, especially if it's just the muscle meat. they can get protein and calcium, maybe fat but dogs have more requirements than that.

as for wolves, the Smithsonian Zoo says on their website that wolves in captivity can live up to 17 yrs. 6-8 in the wild. from the Smithsonian website "At the Smithsonian's National Zoo, the wolves are fed a mixture of dry canine kibble, meat, fish, bones, frozen prey (mostly rabbits) and vegetables".

and you've been here many years, what thread worth keeping up with hasn't strayed, from a little to a lot. if it's going in an interesting direction straying can be good.

Rik


by jillmissal on 13 February 2021 - 10:02

when making your meal try to cook little more than you need and share it with you dog for awhile . after that give to your dog to choose between a bowl with food from your table and a dog's dry food and let us to know result.

 

I don't need to do this as decades and decades of dog nutrition research has already been done by veterinary nutritionists and all I have to do is listen to them. They are the experts. 

 

 if raw meal and harsh environment do not have negative impact onto wild carnivores then why same should be harmful for domesticated ones?

Raw meat does have negative impacts on wild carnivores as many of them die from malnutrition and foodborne illness. It has been found that captive wolves live longer, healthier lives eating commercial dog food than they would if fed raw meat. 

 

Jillmissal is maintaining there is no evidence to prove Raw diets are 'better'; that is not claiming Raw is 'bad' for dogs, just that it isn't necessarily an improvement in their diet.

 

To be very clear, raw diets have no benefits whatsoever and many, many, proven serious risks including nutrition imbalance, bacterial contamination, antibiotic resistance, broken teeth and obstruction (bones), etc.  Feeding a dog with another issue (difficulty getting pregnant) a diet like this that can create serious health problems is the very last thing one needs to be doing. 

 

hund, you are correct, the exact wording was "Raw food is the last thing you should be feeding". I would like to see the evidence for this.\\

There is an enormous amount of evidence on this site, helpfully compiled for you. Here is another. 

 

As far as what a dog "prefers" to eat, well I "prefer" to eat chocolate ice cream and cake all day but that doesn't mean it's good for me. 

 

 


GK1

by GK1 on 13 February 2021 - 11:02

The decades of veterinary nutrition research is often backed by dog food industry $$. Not necessarily faulty research, but when so much corporate competition is behind some of these studies…what is the consumer to believe?

by jillmissal on 13 February 2021 - 12:02

The decades of veterinary nutrition research is often backed by dog food industry $$. Not necessarily faulty research, but when so much corporate competition is behind some of these studies…what is the consumer to believe?

I think it's a silly concern, frankly; OF COURSE a dog food company will want to fund research. It should be alarming that raw food companies refuse to do this work; or that they don't share their findings if they are in fact doing it. If their claims are true, you'd think they want to fly that flag loud and proud with evidence. However, they cannot, because they have no evidence. Instead they make fantastical claims with no basis in fact which should be much much more alarming to a consumer than the fact that Royal Canin (for example) funds dozens of studies every year and acts on their findings. 

Skeptvet discusses the issue of bias quite a bit. Generally it's reasonable to seek out many sources/opinions/studies and as of now, all the legitimate sources support the idea that raw diets have no proven benefits. 

 

Edited to add this link to this site run by board certified veterinary nutritionists, which also provides an extensive amount of information and sources on this issue. 


GK1

by GK1 on 13 February 2021 - 12:02

Royal Canin (German Shepherd formula)

Ingredients
Brewers Rice, Chicken By-Product Meal, Brown Rice, Oat Groats, Chicken Fat, Pork Meal, Natural Flavors, Powdered Cellulose, Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Wheat Gluten, Fish Oil, Vegetable Oil, Sodium Silico Aluminate, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, L-Tyrosine, Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Vitamins [Dl-Alpha Tocopherol Acetate (Source Of Vitamin E), Niacin Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source Of Vitamin C), D-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement], Salt, Monocalcium Phosphate, Hydrolyzed Yeast, Choline Chloride, Dl-Methionine, Taurine, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Marigold Extract (Tagetes Erecta L.), Trace Minerals [Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Copper Proteinate], Magnesium Oxide, Green Tea Extract, Chondroitin Sulfate, Rosemary Extract, Preserved With Mixed Tocopherols And Citric Acid.






 


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