KNPV trouble - Page 6

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by apple on 20 June 2020 - 10:06

Koots,
They already do things in hiding. Even if you get a video from Holland on a dog you are interested in and have a trusted relationship with that person and the dog is wearing an e-collar, there will be a bandanna hiding it.


by Allan1955 on 21 June 2020 - 05:06

Apple, There is not much to hide over there. Holland is a small densely populated country where prong and e-collar are banned by law. Circus performing animals are also banned. Holland maybe the only country in the world where animals have a political party specifically representing their welfare in the government. 

So to suggest that abuse in the KPNV is common practice over there is shear ignorance.

Justifiable hard corrections have the tendency to escalate into abuse, the same as domestic violence by humans into horror.

I believe that the working dog have earned some respect for their contribution to humanity and must never be subject of abuse on there way to serve.

Incompetent trainers that need to resolve to abuse for their objectives, need to be washed out as genetically unsound dogs wood.

 

 

 


by apple on 21 June 2020 - 16:06

I’ll say it again. It is a double edged sword. Traditionally, KNPV handlers are very heavy handed trainers. It weeds out the dogs that are handler soft and strengthens the gene pool. My issue is that too many handlers there don’t know how to teach their dogs. Having a dog that is extreme in drive doesn’t mean you should maximize that drive because if you do, the dog never learns to think or have impulse control. I get that KNPV is not a precision sport, but there should be some middle ground. IMO, ego and lack of knowledge are factors. These days, most KNPV dogs are genetically loaded for prey, possessiveness and hunt drive. As a result, they have lost some of their defensive aggression and protective instinct. More and more they are breeding for prey monsters that you could walk away with from their kennel. That is what the market is looking for.

by ValK on 21 June 2020 - 18:06

apple
your critique seems don't have much of base. those handlers just employing most efficient training technique in accordance with type of their dogs. doesn't meant all of them cruel people.
duke few pages back did say something like "one must differentiate abuse from tough correction". such correction can be seen like too much but it's extend only for period of undesirable dog's behavior. as soon as dog have learned - there is no needs for it anymore. time needed can vary from dog to dog but any dog eventually will get it and if not, then just will be washed out as not suitable one.

by apple on 22 June 2020 - 08:06

It is not the most efficient training technique unless if by efficient you mean fastest. Otherwise, it is contrary to efficient. If a dog is genetically a high prey drive dog, you don't and shouldn't stir the dog into a frenzy by eliciting prey, but rather, quieting the prey drive so the dog can think and learn so that extreme compulsion is not required.

by Hired Dog on 22 June 2020 - 09:06

Gentlemen, corrections are inevitable and indeed required in order to properly train a dog. The size of the dog, its genetic temperament and the infraction in question will dictate the proportion of the correction.
Apple, some dogs, like you mentioned, are genetically born with high prey or high whatever drive you want to call it and almost anything you will do, will kick in that drive.
Yes, I have played with dogs with a ball until they spent drive and were able to get somewhat calmer and start working on actual training, but, again, it goes back to what people have used that works and what their general outlook is on training a dog.
If I used a certain method for 50 years and have had tremendous success with it, why change now to satisfy some treehugger's feelings?
Am I still able to churn out certified dog after certified dog using that method? Yes, so, if it ain't broke dont fix it mentality pervades and the show goes on.
I have seen some of the "training methods" used on some dogs by some trainers and its not for the weak of heart, I agree. Now, the people who use those methods are far and few in-between anymore and most are using better techniques to train today.
There are things that I will personally not allow when training my dog, ie, others correcting it, sticks used for everything, from exciting a dog to hitting a dog to just have something in your hand idiocy, I do not like them do not use them.
I have nothing against electric collars and I find them the best way to train/communicate with a dog after the basics are done.
I have used chokers and prongs for decades, I dont have any use for them anymore as I prefer the E collar mentioned above.
Now, keep in mind that I am NOT after precision, I am after compliance and I get that compliance using the methods I use.

Valk, I agree with you to a certain extend, however, where does one cross the line from correcting to becoming cruel?

by ValK on 22 June 2020 - 11:06

apple, you may like or not but these trainers in the needs of final product - a dogs, who is manageable. if money involved, then likely the time frame is their concern as well, thus this do not contradict to concept and meaning of efficient method of training.
although i agree with your remark about dog's genetic make up, but as i understand, and duke mentioned this as well, such dogs being produced to fulfill demand of certain segment of market and if that a problem, then it extend way beyond of training methods.

hired dog
i never had neither e-collar or even prong collar. if punishment must be used, i believe it must be absolutely obvious for dog that it come direct from master and be fairly open and equal to dog's capacity to resist, if dog decide to do so. it's important part of gaining respect. if i cannot subjugate that dog to my will without things, which provide me advantages over that dog, it's just meant that i do not capable to handle that dog and thus do not deserve to own and handle, because dog is stronger than me.
in regard of crossing the line, perhaps it should be seen off training field, through an attitude of handler to dog and vice versa - dog's attitude to handler.


by Hired Dog on 22 June 2020 - 12:06

Valk, the reason I like the E collar is because I believe the dog should correlate the correction to the behavior the dog was exhibiting the very second it got corrected. I have no idea how you correct your dogs, a wresting match is what came to my mind when you said you dont use tools, I hope I am wrong.
I do not have an interest in subjugating my dog so to speak, I am very interested in making it comply and respect me, which is why in my relationship with him, I take 51% and give him 49%.
Speaking of off the field Valk, I have seen too many dogs being with their owners/handlers with their heads hanging low around them or showing that body language that means fear...I have interest in neither my friend.
My current puppy has been with me for a week now and he is literally and absolute joy to own and just started training.

by apple on 22 June 2020 - 12:06

HD,
I am saying the opposite off playing ball with a dog to tire him so he is calm. I say don't overdo using prey and wait for the dog to calm himself before he gets a reward. There is a difference between a dog being hyper and having a lot of drive and sometimes the high drive dogs are overstimulated. I don't care how others train their dog. You can't argue with the success of the KNPV program. I am not training dogs as a way to make money or to see how fast I can churn out a dog.

by Hired Dog on 22 June 2020 - 13:06

Apple, I was not talking about you nor did I say that you train dogs for profit, I was speaking in generalities.
I can indeed argue with the KNPV program because at one time, it was the epitome of what a hugely successful police dog training program was. Dogs were more balanced, there was aggression, have you seen the dogs in the program lately?
Yes, I know, that is what the market demands, etc, etc, but....
I say breed dogs that are more balanced, more able to control genetic drives instead of screaming idiots who cannot be controlled because of those drives. I said nothing of dogs being hyper and there is a huge difference between a dog with a lot of drive and one with motivation...its the latter I am interested in.
My last GSD was hugely prey driven, I know what its like to live and train with one. My current puppy has some prey drive but its much, much more leaning towards being civil, territorial, with some sharpness. He is only 10 weeks old so we will see how he turns out when he is 3.





 


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