KNPV trouble - Page 3

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Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 13 June 2020 - 23:06

I've been around a few KNPV Mals. Whats dangerous is the ridiculous high level of possession. When they get you and they don't have a solid out. That's the most dangerous thing about it. It's the combination of prey and possession.

by duke1965 on 14 June 2020 - 00:06

if they work over prey only, it has to be extremely high, otherwise the dog will not work on the street, problem is that everything will trigger them into prey, so they are not for first time handlers, no john wick dogs at all

many bitingincidents on the street of privately owned dogs, are preybite incidents as well, have nothing to do with agresssion, running child, jogger, bycicle etc

@ apple, the idea that everybody in KNPVis training that brutal way is ridiculous, many good and smart trainers in KNPV and not an awful lot of dogs that can take the old type brutal training anymore

problems of KNPV are many at same time, declining numbers of members/dogs, corona and a few backstabbing members or ex members who called on shitty TV shows


by apple on 14 June 2020 - 11:06

Duke,
I never said “everybody.” I know you know what I am talking about. A breeder near me has a KNPV Mal X stud he bought from the Netherlands and he had his trachea severely damaged by his handler there. The dog is a very good producer but can never be worked again. How many clubs were shut down from this recent incident? It is ingrained in the KNPV culture.

by ValK on 14 June 2020 - 12:06

there are strong correlation between level of prey and impulsiveness of behavior. the higher prey level - the more noticeable choleric temperament of dog.
Baerenfangs Erbe
dog without significant prey can have strong possession as well.
for sure, possessiveness may create a problem but it's a secondary, kind of possible outcome of the first issue - what motivating and trig an attack.

by duke1965 on 14 June 2020 - 14:06

apple, many malis and X malis have genetic issues with trachea, not sure if its damaged by handler in that case, could be genetic

by apple on 14 June 2020 - 14:06

This person goes to the Netherlands and tests and picks dogs for his breeding program and was told how the dog was injured. Regarding possessiveness, I see it as an extension of prey with more extremely prey driven dogs being more possessive. We have some Mal X’s like that in our club raised here as pups and none have outing issues. The one imported as an adult does because he was never “taught” to out from an early age but was compulsed to out at a later age by being fried. Just being in KNPV does not make you a good handler.

BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 15 June 2020 - 11:06

 


Mwahhh... this was pure sensation , we all know how it works the more sensation te more people watch
and is more cash for advertisement ,comercial tv.


Not saying it doesn,t happen but more and more trainers in KNPV have adjusted there training methods
And yes KNPV can be very harsh even today, but we al know there are world class trainers and
trainers  that sucks and have very oldschool methods.

One of the issue  is the breeding program they went mostly  extreme turbo drives and this dogs are not allways easy to
handle, yesterday I pick up a youngster 5 months old was too much for that handler.


Police in Holland also don,t went middle drive dogs they look for more extreme in drives tracking and detection dogs.

And a LE street dog must can  take any pain  in a conflict with a suspect so some hardness must be in a  breeding and extreme drives with a hard dog who,s not impressed with some corrections  CAN need plan B....not all dogs are yellow ball and cookie monsters

In my opinon KNPV need more profesional management it is a litle bit amateurism at that headquarter this moment.
..... that KNPV program is too oldschool  IMO they have to udate this very soon   some exercises are a waste of time better, they need this  better adjust how police handlers today work with their dogs and not in 1920 with all respect

 


by apple on 15 June 2020 - 12:06

Black Malinois,
I agree that the type of dog now preferred in Holland is what you describe. I believe the problem is that too many trainers focus on building the drive to its genetic potential not realizing that you have to teach the pup and young dog to think and learn control and to make good decisions and that can't be done if the emphasis is so much on drive. Drive is genetic so it won't go away. And extreme drive dogs can absolutely be trained with food and a toy, which I think is another part of the problem. Sometimes food is actually better than a toy because it doesn't trigger prey drive nearly as much. Once a dog has learned to think and some impulse control, the training can go to a toy. Prong and e-collars are still useful tools, but you don't have to use them in an extreme way if the control is taught first. I know e-collars are banned in Holland and I know people still use them. I see it a lot with the type of dogs you are referring to and when outsiders visit our club, the first thing the dog has to learn is that self control will lead to getting to bite or some other reward. Part of training extreme dogs is training them to calm down and think. This approach doesn't require extreme compulsion. I think that the old timers value extreme compulsion partly because it shows them which dogs are not likely to fold on the street if a bad guy kicks them in the head.

by Hired Dog on 15 June 2020 - 13:06

Apple, they value compulsion because it works and it works fast. Yes, there are other methods that can be used and are being used, but, again, compulsion works fast.
Bart Bellon says that dogs work better when they try to avoid the stick as opposed to getting the sugar bread, he has a point. As far as what these dogs do when they get to the street, I am not sure its much of a concern to the person selling a dog so they can get another one and start over.
Having said that, I cannot see how a title or a few extra points are worth the abuse you need to dish out, how do you look in the mirror?
I have zero problem giving a hard correction when needed, but, the level of abuse some guys can put out is way out of my comfort zone.

by apple on 15 June 2020 - 14:06

Bellon has a reputation as a great trainer, but punishment has its pitfalls. Animal studies have shown that painful stimuli can create animal aggression. Punishment is emotionally taxing to dogs just as with people which can interfere with desirable behavior especially if it is of a complex nature. Any stimulus associated with a punishing stimulus tends to become punishing itself. So the handler becomes a conditioned punisher. Most modern trainers know the value of a good relationship with their dog. Punishment does not establish new behavior, it only suppresses old behavior. It only teaches a dog what not to do rather than what to do. Punishment also becomes "addictive" to the user and I think that is what we see a lot of in the KNPV culture. As you said, it results in quick suppression of undesirable behavior. I believe in using the four pillars of operant learning- positive and negative reinforcement and positive and negative punishment, but I try to teach a dog new behavior primarily through positive reinforcement and reserve punishment for when I know a dog knows a behavior and is truly being disobedience. Or I will use prong corrections and low stim corrections to clean up imprecision. I have found that the better one is at teaching new behaviors with positive reinforcement, the need for punishment is greatly reduced.





 


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