To REPROMAND for long term affects - Page 1

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by Nans gsd on 09 May 2020 - 19:05

What is your secret?? Thx for sharing.

Koots

by Koots on 10 May 2020 - 10:05

Not sure what you're asking, and the way you're asking it makes me wonder if your account has been hacked - this does not seem like you, Nans.   You OK?


by Nans gsd on 10 May 2020 - 11:05

Yes Koots, I am fine. It's just my training skills suck, obviously. Can't seem to make any progress in my training skills and make them stick; in otherwards I am trying to get my boy to stop forging ahead; am trying to get my boy to NOT run from the nail grinder (and from me if I have it in my hand) and call him to come to me for nails to be done; yeah I get that he does not like it, (neither do I) but has to be done. Well that is a start and sometimes once I think I have taught him something like not to forge ahead well it goes in the hen basket only to repeat the same problem next time. WHAT... So what can I do different to make changes that will stay with the dog (forever)?? Not go back to where we were the last time. Does that explain my post better? Not sure.

Koots

by Koots on 10 May 2020 - 12:05

Lots of information needed to help with the forging. Do you mean dog is forging when heeling, or just walking on lead? I have found that the incentive/reward (ball, tug, etc.) holding/placement makes a huge difference in the dog's position while heeling. I use the ball or tug for reward. I hold the ball closer to my left shoulder and the dog does not forge ahead - I hold the ball more in the centre of my body and dog will wrap around a bit which often results in forging. Also, tossing the ball backwards for the 'break/reward' will help prevent the dog from anticipating going forward for the ball after 'break'. I have found some good info pages on FB, including 'IGP Handler's Group'. My training sessions will always start with something familiar that the dog knows and does well, then if working on something new we will do that in the middle, then finish off with something familiar again. Repetition, repetition, repetition - but make it fun. For heeling, I sped a TON of time on the 'heel position', so the dog learns that 'heel' is a position and to keep that position no matter where my body is. Is there a dog sport group that you can join to get some in-person help? That would be far better than trying to figure out what someone on the net is trying to explain through type, lol. Best of luck ;)

by Rik on 10 May 2020 - 12:05

well nans, good luck on the nail grinder. I never learned the secret, and showing dogs, I have/had a lot of experience.

I usually ended up using a sedative. I do think one has to be careful not to overheat the nail, but nothing I did ever made it a pleasant experience for either of us.

Rik

by Nans gsd on 10 May 2020 - 12:05

@ Koots: YES forging when on leash heeling AND forging when walking on leash. I'll try ball/tug reward and throwing it backwards. But he should know this stuff and I think just doesn't want to do it my way; wants his own way of doing things, therefore, one step forward and 2 steps backwards. Not taking me seriously and have tried e-collar quite a while ago and did not make any kind of impact obviously. (Lasting impact). In otherwards when I put leash on and command heel, want his head by my knee, when I am walking him on leash I want his head automatically at my knee; nope he wants to have his neck/shoulder area at my knee level. For me that is too far ahead...Mind you this is a 7 year old dog. So is this a never ending battle or what? Is this due to the fact that he is older and doesn't want to change or what??

by Nans gsd on 10 May 2020 - 13:05



@ Rik: I get the fact that the grinder heats up and this new one really heats up in my hand; however, when I grind I try to bounce the grinder a bit to let it cool or take it off the nail for a few seconds to cool down. But he went into his crate and would not come out when called. That is a no no as he would not come to me. At this point I just quit. He won.

TIG

by TIG on 10 May 2020 - 16:05

Hi Nans,  The nail thing is a bugaboo. To be honest I still use clippers. I find if I stand them and do like a blacksmith it works better but never fun esp iF you have a dog whose nails don't tip and are made of stain less steel. My sister had one of my shepherds that just would NOT let her nails be cut AND was willing to use her mouth. BIG NO NO for me so I had her bring her to me. With me she thought about using the mouth but wouldn't  but fought like the banshee she was named after. Tried everything including wrapping in blanket. Nada. I often would put them up on the bed because it made it easier for me and they seemed to think they were less in control. Nope did not work - UNTIL - one day and I don't remember if I put it on her or if she had a wound but she had on a plastic Elizabethan collar. It was as if she knew she couldn't bite or attempt to and being on the bed laying down was not a position of power and bingo she laid quietly until nails done. Might be worth a try. BTW next time lock crate door :))

Re the forging two suggestions. Had a young long coat male with energy thru the roof - herding is the ONLY thing that got him to sleep with both eyes shut. By the way the reason forging is such a problem in GSDs is it is a trait straight out of those herding genes. It's why GSDS were the first guide dogs and why Fidelco always went back to herding lines for their breeding dogs.  Cannonball Mike was his name which was a clue to his attitude in life. Forging OH YES we must hurry up and get there where ever there was. I despaired until one day at home I noticed something.  That house had a very short narrow hall connecting all the rooms - maybe 5-6 ft long. Typical GSD Mike always wanted to be with me so would follow me around the house. In the hall because of the shortness of it and the narrowness and the fact it had 4 doors so he didn't know where I was going, he would put himself in perfect heel position. When my brain finally woke up and realized this, I started to reward it and put it on cue. So we learned to heel literally 4 -5 ft at a time and very very gradually increased the number of steps.  So perhaps you can find a situation that he does put himself in the right position that you can take advantage of or set up one where he has little choice but to be next to you - even if it's only for a step or two at first.  But that will let you clearly mark and reward the behavior/position you want. It is a slow process yes but a whole lot better than constant corrections or arguments.  BTW how old is your guy? 

Now the other thing I want to note is I only use a formal heel sparingly.  Competition obviously but in day to day only if there is a need for extra control or if I'm  reinforcing obedience for a specific reason. I have always taught my dogs a separate casual walk command which basically tells them they have the length of the lead as long as it does not tighten, they do not pull and they steer clear of me and don't trip me. On our walks around the neighborhood I feel they should have a right to check out the "hood" ,sniff and leave pmail. There are many ways of teaching no pull but one way I have often used is the moment the leash tightens, I chop down strongly on it with my hand or cane and say no pull! I think it works because they still have the length of the loose leash to explore and I am just correcting ONE thing - the tightness of the leash. I am not simultaneously trying to get them back to a very artificial heel position.

Wish you luck . Keep us posted.

Edit: Just saw he's 7, so my question changes to are you still trialing him? If not teach him a relaxed walk - less stress on both of you.  Also imho his shoulder to your knee is correct heel position and finally is some of this related to the speed you are walking at. For big long dogs often you need to walk faster to help them maintain correct position just because of body mechanics.


by Nans gsd on 10 May 2020 - 17:05

Thank you TIG, no never been trialed, but want to maintain his training from beginning which was at one time not to forge; Like the idea of the hallway exercise, could possibly do something like that here. Do you suggest on or off leash; I'll try both but will see until he masters the exercise. YES I agree did finally lock his crate but was still being a "BUTT". Not like I quick him regularly, NOPE. I used to have to muzzle him as he was much worse, but have not had to do that as of late. And I use heel "command" for everything we do on or off leash. And he is a big guy which does not help the situation. For me I want him a bit behind me; not neck to knee. I feel I have better control, maybe not though. Lots of dogs in the neighborhood so don't want him ahead of me. I try to very speeds so he does not get bored and has to pay attention to what I am doing.

Thank you again for your thoughts; and I do realize his herding background and why they want to forge ahead but do not like him doing it with me particularly on leash. He just shuts down if I crank on him too much then we are both unhappy. Definitely cannot follow hubs and his brother as he acts like a jack ass totally so had to quit that altogether.

TIG

by TIG on 10 May 2020 - 20:05

Re the hall I always did off leash-less conflict and purpose was to solidify position as correct If you are going to try the hall I have another suggestion since he is 7 and you do have a history of conflict on this issue.

Change the word - the command. That combined with different place will make it seem like a new exercise to the dog especially if you start out with just 1 or 2 steps focusing on position & rewarding w jackpots frequently for getting it right.

Years ago was working too much so signed up for a basic obedience class w one of my older dogs (7 or 8 at the time) as a way of committing to more time w dogs. Now up to that point all my dogs were taught house manners & basic obedience but were never trialed so most commands were a bit casual esp the stays. I tended to use a wait meaning you can be in any position just don't move until told to ( for ex at doors). This bitch was extremely bonded to me so for her formal stays with me 30ft or more away were very difficult and we struggled mightily until an old timer told me to change the command. Asked my friends for words. Found a Polish one I liked and it worked like a charm. Actually went on to put an obedience degree on her.





 


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