Linebreeding on Pike del Lupo Nero - Page 1

Pedigree Database

 

by Pirschgang on 01 May 2020 - 14:05

Hello everyone,

As I'm sure many know, there are stud dogs that become in vogue and end up producing many litters over the course of a few years to even a solid decade.
Examples, of course, include dogs such as Fado Karthago, Fero and his progeny (e.g. Troll & Timmy) and Tom van't Leefdaalhof to name a few. Because these dogs are so widely used and produce so many litters, there inevitably becomes many later litters who end up being linebred on said dogs. Lately we've seen a number of litters linebred on Tom and his progeny, specifically Ellute.

A dog that has become quite popular in the last 7 or 8 or so years is Pike del Lupo Nero:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=570280-pike-del-lupo-nero
https://en.working-dog.com/dogs-details/223600/Pike-del-Lupo-Nero

Seeing as he's become a popular stud for some time now, I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with progeny linebred on him or if linebreeding on him is even advisable. I know it takes two to tango in the dog world, meaning you don't know what you're going to get without also looking at the mother, but the question still stands nonetheless. To put it in perspective, according to working-dog, Pike has over 1,000 progeny. I image it's closer to 1200 given that not all dogs are entered into online databases, but this is purely speculation.
Another question, does Pike have a son that will be his "successor" so to speak? By this I mean Fero's "successor' was his son Troll and Tom's "successor" was his son Ellute.

Anyway, I was just curious and thought I'd share these thoughts here to see if anyone had any ideas about linebreeding on Pike.


by duke1965 on 01 May 2020 - 15:05

two things to think about,, 

first, linebreeding, most of todays linebreedings are accedental, as some dogs breed so many females that its hard not to double up on names, which doesnot make it a linebreeding per se

 

secondly, from my perspective(LE) where I tested many pike kids and grandkids, and saw certain undesirable traits popping up again and again, I would not linebreed on pike, but think that pike bred to opposing type of dog brings very good dogs, 


by Pirschgang on 01 May 2020 - 16:05

"from my perspective(LE) where I tested many pike kids and grandkids, and saw certain undesirable traits popping up again and again"
" but think that pike bred to opposing type of dog brings very good dogs"

Like what? Could you give us some examples? Thanks, duke.

by duke1965 on 01 May 2020 - 16:05

will leave it at that, Pike was good dog that produced well, just wouldnot double up on that

by ValK on 01 May 2020 - 17:05

i think your question cannot be answered.
relatively assured prediction of mating outcome could be made on condition if constant uniformity is kept in mating selection aka only dogs,
who shows desirable appearance/traits been chosen to sustain and improve certain bloodline.

overall today's breeding is pretty much messy, when emphasis put on famous name only, irregardless of qualities of mating partner and the
following use of first generation, in which dogs do retaining famous name in pedigree but not any qualities, which been seen in initial dog.

by duke1965 on 01 May 2020 - 17:05

Valk, if we see larger number of offspring of different dogs for sure we can see similair traits popping up again and again, most of times I can tell what dogs are in the pedigree after testing the dog, or, the other way around, when looking at the pedigree before testing, 85% of time the test comes out as expected regarding to the pedigree

furthermore, these famous males that breed a lot, also get large numbers of crappy females offered to breed, so thats not helping their overall picture of how good a producer they are 


by ValK on 01 May 2020 - 18:05

unlike me, you have rich experience in breeding but even so, cornerstone of your reply is "if we see larger number of offspring".
you know that even two outstanding dogs, giving a good offspring, still not produce all pups identically good as themselves.
there would be stronger and weaker specimens. whatever, all those pups belong to certain bloodline, irregardless each pup quality and
unfortunately the next breeders, who decide to capitalize on name and obtained these pups, will bred them without discriminating if that
certain pup worthy or not.
so, one, before place the bid on pup, should see and test pup's parents (which for majority is impossible to do) or be absolutely confident
and have full trust in a breeder.

by duke1965 on 02 May 2020 - 01:05

Valk, every buyer is different and has different expectations for pups, than some good pups may be living in a garden somewhere and some not so good may end up in a working home,

but regardless that, if I test many offspring of certain dogs i can see similarities popping up, good ones and/or bad ones and by that you can get a general idea,

now my experiences wont help the "average  "puppybuyer, but most of them will keep the dog as a pet anyway and will tell you its the best dog they ever had 

 


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 02 May 2020 - 07:05

Why can't we openly talk about undesirable traits?
It doesn't diminish any of the success or quality he has produced. I don't see anything wrong in having real talk about a dog and undesirable traits being discussed when doubled up on a dog.

There are a few producers out there that shouldn't be doubled up on. Especially not closely, because you can get undesirable traits because of that.

A dog with a high level of suspicion and a good amount of aggression generally shouldn't be doubled up on because it can produce undesirable traits such as a higher nerve, undesirable sharpness etc.

Why can't we talk about that? Shouldn't we talk about that? It's not trashtalking a dog but having a REAL talk for people to understand what and why you shouldn't do this or that combination. And if we don't talk about that and gatekeep breeding practices than we will continue to have these combinations that are undesirable and produce dogs that shouldn't be out there to begin with.


Koots

by Koots on 02 May 2020 - 11:05

Agreed BE - not everyone has the opportunity to be personally familiar with the dogs they would like to plan a line-breeding on. In that case, it's only through exchange of information that one can acquire the knowledge (from trusted, unbiased sources of course) in order to plan successful breedings. Without frank, honest discussions about dogs' character and how they reproduce or pass on certain traits, one cannot learn how to best make a pairing for phenotype, genotype and to complement/compensate. Share the knowledge!





 


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