Non DDR bloodline that breed the DDR structure or similar - Page 3

Pedigree Database

 

by GSCat on 16 March 2020 - 15:03

by TIG on 15 March 2020 - 22:03

I see Koots beat me to one of my comments. I too was going to say that stubborness  is NOT a trait to be desired. Have you owned a stubborn dog? I have and you waste a lot training time convincing that dog it is in their best interest to learn on your schedule not theirs. Plus Koots is SO right about the skill level of most police dog handlers. When I was young I used to think the highest best use for a GSD was as a police dog until I learned how most departments run their dog programs. The only way I would place a dog as a police dog is if he will be owned by the officer handling him and that person is known or recommended to me!

 

by Hundmutter on 16 March 2020 - 04:03

TIG: BRAVO !!!

 

+10000 with both TIG and Hundmutter.

The only way I was willing to be a K9 handler was to own the dog.  And stubborn dogs can be a problem, especially if they are seriously one-handler-only if something happens to the handler, even if he or she is incapacitated for only a few days.


TIG

by TIG on 16 March 2020 - 16:03

Valk, Yes it is good he is trying to learn and has not jumped to breeding in ignorance. I did not mean to be critical but instead I was trying to get across the point that book knowledge is not enough. That at some point you have to interact with the living animals to learn to know. That does not mean he has to own a dog or start breeding right away.

I was 13 when I got my first GSD as a pet having read about them and begged my parents for one for several years. Our Dr owned one, Duke, and it was his wife who helped me get my first. Even at 13, I knew I had to learn more ( back in the dark ages b4 the Web & b4 easy access to info). I read every dog book and GSD book I could find. I searched libraries and used book stores. To this day, I collect GSD material - old standards, out of print materials, magazine, information on genetics. I bugged my dad to drive me to vets offices to learn if they had clients with GSDs or knew of GSDs breeders. From this I met several and learned about dog shows & the national GSD magazine and saved up and subscribed. But I also started to go to dog shows taking the bus until I lucked out and met a 17 yr old who was equally passionate about GSDs and could drive!! My access to dog events expanded. Since those early days I have invested hours upon hours going to shows, trials,seminars and clinics often as an observer when I did not have a dog to work or exhibit. But you listen, you watch, you ask questions. The only way to truly get structure is to see it - the good AND the bad- and if possible get your hands on it. I would offer AND still do to work at dog events - this exposes you to knowledgeable people. In herding one of the best ways to learn is to scribe for a judge esp a good old boy who has lived wth herding dogs all his/her life. They often talk about what they are seeing or point things out to you.

Today with the Web in some ways this journey is infinitely easier. With one click to this db you have access to information it would have taken me months or years or a ton of money to get. But it does not change the need to get out into the real world with the dogs. Here too it is so much easier to find clinics, seminars, training groups . The op should be visiting to training groups and watch the dogs ( and listen to their voice wh tells you an enormous amount about the dogs nerves & stability).  Talk to owners,  trainers, helpers. GO to helper seminars as a spectator and you will learn things you never knew. If you have the physical ability think about becoming a helper. You learn AND you are paying back to the breed, the sport. ALL dog training at some point is community or group based. Offer to help. At the time I was working Remy I walked with arm crutches. She was my service dog and my sport dog. We could not have accomplished what we did without the help of others -for example the strength of my training partners on the long lead. If YOU WANT to there are always ways to help out, to participate  and what better way is there to spend time outside with dogs and/ or horses or sheep.

This has been my hobby, my passion for almost 60 years.  I have owned and met great dogs, beautiful dogs and a few problem dogs along the way that sometimes teach you more than an easier dog. I have had the privilege of meeting, knowing and often becoming friends with wonderful, knowledgeable people in the dog world.  My dog friends are my community, my backstop. I wouldn't trade a minute -but it all started by stepping out into the real world. That's what I would like to see the OP do.


TIG

by TIG on 16 March 2020 - 17:03

OP what country are you from? Are you intending to be a hobby breeder or a commercial (for money) breeder? Are you old enough to drive so you can go to trials, shows, kennels?

See my response to Valk  above. If you have not done so I strongly suggest you put down the computer and get out in the real dog world.  You can not plan a breeding program solely on paper plus by the time you get to implementing it the lines may no longer be available.  The average dog person stays engaged  for about 5 years. Breeding lines disappear rapidly especially in the modern day world where folks focus on podium winners and 3-4 year old dogs. When my first dog died I tried to find similiar breeding. No luck it was gone with the wind. But the search brought me to my next several dogs linebred on the 1956 Sieger that had great structure, temperament and herding ability. But within 3 Gen I lost that line because the last dog out of it did not pass hip clearance - tho he lived & worked until 14. Once again when I looked around, it was like a ghost wind. Oh they are still there but way way back behind both working and hi-lines and to this day when I see structure I like, I can guarantee I will find the brew I liked back there. The good dutch knpv lines behind my Remy are almost impossible to find these days.

So while it is good to plan for the future, you have to understand life happens. Plans change. People and dogs get old. Once prominent kennels fade and disappear. While this can be sad for those of us that loved those dogs it can be exciting to find new lines to work with.  

3 concerns from your comments. As noted above structure can only be learned in the flesh but it starts with the standard. That is the blueprint, the design. Learn it and then take its words out to real dogs. Many many GSDs in the world today have very if not extremely incorrect structure. Imho I find more correct structure today in SG & V animals than in the VA ones chosen for highly political and monetary reasons. IPO dogs tend to have very steep shoulders and incorrect fronts. A correct front is the easiest to lose and the hardest to get back. Most have never seen a truly correct front but once you have you cannot fail to recognize it and no it is NOT a  dog doing heil hitler.A dog with correct structure looks like it is floating on air. DDR dogs have their own issues  with structure including the fact that the  wide bulky look so many like is what was considered  coarseness under the standard and a  fault.. I went to the BLH last fall (herding championship) and saw more consistently correct structure than I've seen in a long time which only makes sense since these dogs are doing the job the breed was designed for and they do it for 8 to 12 hours a day. I highly recommend attending the BLH. It was a hoot and a great time.

Re the petting and suspiciousness. I still disagree. I had a friend with such a dog and have seen what it takes to live with one. No thank you. But I also read a misunderstanding of the useful of suspicion in police work and also about it as a trait of GSDs. Re police work my understanding of how police dogs are used in the US it has no function. The dogs are used to get or contain a suspect on command or to search an area for a suspect. Neither of these tasks requires suspicion. Re suspicion in the breed a good dog has it but that does not make them antisocial. As an example is my current dog who is my mobility assist dog. She was deliberately raised to be very social (on command) however when I walk her as a good German Shepherd does she is highly aware of her environment. If she sees a child she will perk up and wag her tail. If she sees an adult she does not know usually she stops and watches them but is relaxed. But there are times esp at night that instead she goes to the end of the lead and watches with a very stiff body posture which clearly conveys the message that this is someone to be aware of. So I have all that I need to have in terms of suspicion without the liability of a distrustful dominant dog. In the summer I leave my front and back doors open for air flow.  This bitch leaves the bedroom where she normally sleeps and lies at the one point in the house where she can see both doors. Not a trained behavior.

Finally re your statement of breeding for police & border dogs but knowing all may not be suitable so you will place the others as PPDs. There are several assumptions and things wrong with this. The first is an attitude I often see in this breed that the owner's /breeder's choice of preferred function is the only worthwhile use and anything else is less than to be essentially dismissed and tossed away. The beauty and uniqueness of our breed is as a breed it has the capability to serve many functions. A guide dog is not less than an IPO dog who is not less than a LE dog who is not less than the family pet who interacts everyday with friends,  vistirs, delivery men but sleeps at night with one eye open so that nothing can threaten their family. Each and every one of these dogs serve an important function.

Finally there is your assumptions about what you will get and how you will place them. Two realities. First nature always always is pushing back at you. It pushes to the mean, the average not to the exceptional. Secondly no matter how well or how long you plan, breeding is a crap shoot.Some litters click, some are absolute disasters and in the vast majority nature triumphs and they are in the middle. The most common outcome from a well planned litter is pups with a range of abilities and temperaments and even those 2 items may not be aligned in a way to allow placement in your preferred occupations. So you could have a dog with stellar scenting ability but who is body insensitive, has thin nerves and is over reactive. Not remotely ideal for any kind of scenting work and a very problematic dog to place. Another old timer maxim is you shouldn't breed unless you have the ability to keep them all if need be, which is one of the reasons I bred infrequently. When you don't have pups people want them. When you do they had gotten impatient and already have a dog. These are just some of the challenges a responsible breeder faces.

As I noted above you do not have to even own a dog to learn this but you do have to interact with dogs and pups of all ages.  Spend some time finding dog people in your area. I have always found it in general to be a welcoming community.  Spend time with them and their dogs. That's the best investment you can make. Good luck.

 


emoryg

by emoryg on 16 March 2020 - 18:03

Pyro, good luck with your endeavors! I hope you keep us posted with your thoughts and progress. If you decide to buy, don't rule out an older proven female who has already dropped something you like.

Tig, I enjoyed reading your wisdom and insight. I especially liked the comment about Secretariat. Every year before the three big races, I watch old videos of that big red horse "blazing along"!

Derby https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74Usj3K4oZ0 

Preakness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV89InWOENc

Belmont https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V18ui3Rtjz4&t=172s


by Rik on 16 March 2020 - 19:03

well, maybe I'm way behind the times, and I have really enjoyed the replies from real world breeders/trainers/dog folks.

I just really don't think it's possible to project 5 generations out. i've seen very good pedigree breeding's (for my purpose at the time) that did not produce anything close to what I imagined or hoped.

good luck pyro, but really, when you get into the real world and dogs with hair and teeth, health, hips, elbows, character, you will be better able to make decisions for your needs one generation at a time.

here is hoping you make a difference in the future of the GSD world. my only advice is {if you want to be anything past a puppy breeder) to start one dog at a time that meets your requirements.

jmo,
Rik


Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 16 March 2020 - 21:03

This bitch leaves the bedroom where she normally sleeps and lies at the one point in the house where she can see both doors. Not a trained behavior.

I've had 2 females that did that. My old girl, currently 13, has done it all her life. You can see the black marks her coat leaves on the door, where she leans against it. Anyone who comes in unannounced will have to push her out of the way, and she will let them know that they don't belong there.

I don't think she'd actually bite someone, just give them a good scare with her aggresive barking but the girl in my sig would...and did!


by GSCat on 16 March 2020 - 23:03

by Sunsilver on 16 March 2020 - 21:03 , quoting  TIG on 16 March 2020 - 17:03

This bitch leaves the bedroom where she normally sleeps and lies at the one point in the house where she can see both doors. Not a trained behavior.

I've had 2 females that did that. My old girl, currently 13, has done it all her life. You can see the black marks her coat leaves on the door, where she leans against it. Anyone who comes in unannounced will have to push her out of the way, and she will let them know that they don't belong there.

I don't think she'd actually bite someone, just give them a good scare with her aggresive barking but the girl in my sig would...and did!

 Every German Shepherd and Siberian Husky I've ever owned has done this.  And all but two cats.

 

 


by xPyrotechnic on 17 March 2020 - 09:03

TIG you was not critical at all, what you have done was gave me a new outlook as to what i want to be breeding, you gave constructive critisicms which helped me a lot. I am 21 living in the England and i intend to be not a hobby breeder neither a breeder for money as i will hopefully be Homicide Detective currently studying Criminology 2nd year i will be breeding for the police department back in my home country in about 10 years time as they do not have police dogs that are good.I understand where you are coming from now the importance of attenidng these competitions is not only to see hwihc dog is good but to see what dog produces what by looking at different siblings or half siblings you can undertsand the dominant gene that is being consistently produced whereas in a pedigree reading you dont really know its complete luck unless you know the sire and dam

by GSCat on 17 March 2020 - 16:03

I am 21 living in the England and i intend to be not a hobby breeder neither a breeder for money as i will hopefully be Homicide Detective currently studying Criminology 2nd year year i will be breeding for the police department back in my home country in about 10 years time as they do not have police dogs that are good

Good luck.  Make sure you get a lot of street time before going into the Detective Bureau.  It helps a lot in a bunch of different ways... learning rapport with people, questioning/gathering information/evidence, advocating for victims, learning who's who in the community, earning a reputation in the community (you want to be known for your fairness and integrity or no one will trust/cooperate with you)... etc., etc., etc.

Back to the topic at hand...

If there are any departments nearby that have K9 units and breeding programs, work with them, as well.  Cooperation among department breeding and training programs means better/safer/more effective K9 teams, economies of scale, more diverse readily available DNA, exerienced breeders/handlers mentoring new ones, and new breeders/handlers looking at things with a fresh perspective.  Also better if a major incident or event happens and multiple teams have to work together.  Win-win for everyone all the way around.  Working with breeders  and handlers from departments in other countries also has merit.  There are a lot of great K9 programs that would be happy to advise, help, work with you once you are in a leadership position for your department's K9 program.  Serving as a K9 handler during your later time on the street would also give you a lot of valuable insight for breeding.  BTW, besides unsuitable dog characteristics, bad K9 dogs can be a training, deployment, or matching with handler issue.  Politics should never enter into selection of K9 handlers, but, unfortunately, sometimes does. 

Good luck with everything.

 


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 17 March 2020 - 17:03

Would be rather surprised, if xPyro is on track to get into Detectives, if he gets anywhere near a sniff of working in a Dog Section here. That isn't 'politics' GSCat, its just about how our UK Police Service works.





 


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