German shepherd breeders specially ddr pls answer - Page 4

I would not have put her at 2.5 years.   Then again, she could be 25 plus at the withers as some of those taller females tend to develop much slower and stay narrow with little depth. 

Here is a 2.5 year old described by GK1.  Close to 26 inches.  She would work all day and still hunt down suspects that were tracked for several miles.  Gazelle was her nickname as she had great vertical and horizontal distance.  Cykki would sometimes only touch the six foot wooden privacy fences with her rear feet as we negotiated tracks through people’s backyards.  Agility nut.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2804143-cykki-z-kainarova-dvora

GSD at 2 year supposed to be fully grown and formed mentally and physically adult dog.
if not, then something very wrong.
sable bitch looks healthy and not malnourished, as some of you suggested. it's just her build much more resemble mali than german shepherd - narrow chest, very dry body, thin bones. the only thing left from GSD is a head.
lately more and more often can be seen similar type among GSDs, which is worrisome trend.

Everyone please!!!!  

The picture that Valk entered with the two dogs in it, the one on the left is the  2.5 yr dog that was originally being talking about.

The larger picture that is a SABLE it is totally different. That dog was posted as an example since you all thought that the ORIGINAL female was too thin.

here is 1971 DDR siegerine, which means such type was accepted as ideal to follow and achieve in breeding for all breeders in former DDR.
now compare to present trend.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=5554-burga-vom-osterberg

All, WR ?  I said I thought she was too fat !

ValK - completely agree with you about the build of the sable, but I do not prefer it and even the head isn't what I like to see. If there are more and more about like her, it is a trend I regret. And she is still too thin and light, whatever age and general build (again, JMO !) Dogs do not have to be featherweights to be able to compete in (any) sports, or work.

There is a point about getting back to the look of the earliest dogs; but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I think we are mostly too used to the modern dogs (when well done) to want to go back to the, let's face it, erratic type of e.g. the nineteen thirties. The '71 Siegerine is a much better constructed and substantial bitch IMO. And not so very different from many of the better girls among the Showlines (at least the show winning ones !) I see in the UK much of the time.

Of course, this about weight and construction is purely discussing the physical aspects of the dogs. Coming back to what the OP was asking, I don't consider myself competent to hold an opinion about whether there are still 'DDR' temperaments remaining in dogs with any specificaly DDR 'blood' if you go back far enough in their ancestry, 'cos I was never in contact with those Border dogs of which you wrote, ValK, nor did I see much of dogs of those bloodlines which got out from behind the 'Iron Curtain'.  

I can say I have met dogs of British breeding based on (west) German ancestry which have had good steady natures and performed reliably with loyalty to guarding owners' possessions etc just as the dog in your recent video, ValK. So acknowledging that not every GSD is like that, but convinced that they exist outside the 'DDR' definition.

Hundmutter
you're insulting 1971 siegerin by comparing her to show dogs :) she is astoundingly beauty. on her page you can see wertmessziffer evaluation but i would add few things, absent in official evaluation:
- powerful mouth with nice strong lower jaw
- well developed chest, shoulders and strong neck
- wide and sturdy hips
- big paws with nice, thick boned legs.
although she isn't really big girl, in fact she does looks more masculine than many male dogs of today's breeding.

i'm not knowledgeable much in show breeding. some people fascinated by these dog but i never saw even one, to be impressed or at least find likable. all of them have pretty loose/weak/inefficient build, usually hidden by fluffy coat.
dogs in my past was rather untypical dogs. albeit in foundation was DDR GSDs, they were bred for quite narrow purpose with certain approach to selection and obviously can't represent available at that time wide diversity of DDR dogs.
but i'm absolutely sure - good dogs depends not on geolocation of place of birth but on approach of breeders to selection. after all those DDR dogs didn't come out of space but developed on same stock and genetics of dogs, as in W.Germany and rest of the world. the fundation dogs were same - priorities of breeding were different.

you see, any dog can be trained to guard object. difference come into play - how that particular dog doing this task. if you look at video, which you're mentioned, with more attention to details, you'll notice small things which escape attention of many viewers.
the dog first become suspicious - bad things going to happen and gave growling warning. after first movement of the guy on right, dog rises on his fits but not immediately went to assault suspect. instead continued show active form of own readiness to protect and at same time does concentrate his attention not only on moving person but also on second guy, who stay still. only after guy do not back and obviously shown attempt to possess backpack, dog went violent. even dealing with first guy, dog still pay attention to second suspect.
those few second moment at beginning, some people can take as inconfidence when in fact dog just demonstrated his brain work, understanding that movement can be trick to draw his attention away, when second person will grab backpack.
Gustav gave good short summary - pragmatical and practical dog.

ValK, have you ever been in England, and visited a British GSD Club Show ? You say I insulted Burga - well your description of 'all' the Show dogs you have ever seen insults a great many UK GSDs, of both sexes, alive and well today, and of our past. 

And if a Showdog has a 'weak build', that is as much the fault of exhibitor-owners who do nothing with the dog except take it to Shows & for walks, they never get involved in training for any other competition or sport, or protection.  Take most of these dogs and raise them to include some sort of hard Work and you see an entirely different and fitter animal, albeit a 'pretty' one also. Something an increasing number of owners on our Show scene ARE beginning to find out.  These may not make the 'best' working dogs, but that is not the point.  Some people manage to keep their Showdogs in peak physical condition just by exercise alone, without a sport or protection element, but not many.  Because there are not many, one may not always find them; but they do exist. If you were able to spend enough time around enough dogs of this sub-set, you would meet one or two in the end.

I am not claiming that is true of them all, by any means. But it is true of the best of them. I agree with all the things you say about Burga, physically. They are very much exactly why I do not like that Sable because none of them apply to her ! In addition to essentials IMO like muscle definition, also lacking. Good muscular construction is only partially genetically endowed, mostly it is MADE.

Not all the dogs to which I referred, for temperament or other non-constructional characteristics, were SHOWDOGS either; many (and not all) came from Show LINES, which is different ! I am firmly of the opinion that dogs are just like humans - not in a "furbaby" way, but in terms of individual personalities and capabilities. Just as we have knowledge of folks around us, that there are some people you would trust and want to have your back in some crisis, and others who you really would not want to have to rely on, so with different dogs. Some are far more consistent and reliable than others. And they are a minority. But I do not believe ANYBODY can get that right in their breeding EVERY time - which is why such dogs are often hard to find, for all of us. And why it is hard to recommend kennels we all know to be completely consistent and reliable in producing them. Else a (very) few breeders would have competely cornered the market !

While we still cannot isolate particular genes, or groups of alleles which confer particular types of temperaments, it will continue to depend on "the luck of the draw" as much as, e.g., any building on old lines where (some ?) dogs bred were outstanding workers, etc. That's why producing dogs can be so interesting - because 'you never quite know what you are going to get'.

And you surely have to recognise that when someone is trying actively to breed for PHYSICAL type, there is the same amount of variation. Not every puppy in the one litter is potentially a Show winner, or even worth showing at all; no matter how 'well' and closely the litter is bred on previous winning conformations.  Some breeders are luckier than others with this and their output is very consistent, but even those will tell you there are 'pet' quality pups that get quietly sold off to non-exhibitors.

Yes, I watched that video closely, watched the body language of that dog, saw a lot of the points you describe in the post above here. But the better dogs I have known (whether they might have won awards for conformation, OR NOT - and several certainly would not) have been like that, too; they have displayed that careful caution, that thinking ability. No, this isn't true of the majority of the breed, but I don't think it ever has been. Even dogs that had reasonably good judgement have had their off days; and the vast majority of GSDs I have known over the decades have had an assortment of 'character failings', some of which have sometime made themselves clear at very awkward moments. But they have still mostly been perfectly nice, biddable characters 99% of the time, WHICH IS ALL MOST OWNERS WANT OR NEED, 100% of the time !

That bitch that Western rider posted had been recently spayed, weighed 65 pounds at the time picture was taken, healthy, runs fast enough to catch a wild rabbit, and in a working home. Was never bred even though hips and elbows normal and she has a great temperament with very solid nerves. Every one who would never have her on you place because of a bad picture of her are judgemental without facts.
Thank you.