German shepherd breeders specially ddr pls answer - Page 16

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by stormins on 09 January 2020 - 12:01

8lu3d09

Thanks for the repost of the DDR list I didnt see Strazhe Severa kennels Evegina Shishmakova...does anyone know if she is good to do business with? I know she has gotten some of her DDR dogs from Claudia. I expect there will be nothing but silence from some people to this question.


by apple on 09 January 2020 - 13:01

Under the old DDR Korung or breed survey event, the Wertmessziffer was a rating scale that rated a dog's structure, temperament, sharpness, etc. The next to highest rating for sharpness was "good" and the temperament was described as "aggressive, hard, sharp and dangerous. The highest rating for sharpness was "very good" and the dog's temperament was described as "relaxed, friendly, very hard when provoked." So it is very clear that they were striving for very civil, aggressive dogs. I believe, and Valk has written, that the DDR breeders liked to use dogs in their breeding program with high degrees of dominance and social aggression. Both traits would be consistent with potentially dangerous dogs, either to the handler, others or both. This is very different to what working lines are selected for today, largely due to the DDR dogs being bred as military dogs. I think you also have to think of the degree of sophistication when it comes to training. I seriously doubt people were using operant or classical learning principles and used strong compulsion, which is not a good approach for a highly dominant dog working with his handler for the first time as an adult. Today, even the police and military in the states are not looking for those type of dogs, further reducing the market for them. If someone wanted to try to bring those traits back and create a bloodline, the way to would not be to focus on strictly pure DDR dogs, but to find healthy dogs with strong social aggression and dominance, hold back the puppies, select the dogs that meet the criteria, and keep searching for similar dogs to breed with. This would be a very expensive and time consuming process for such a small market.

sentinelharts

by sentinelharts on 09 January 2020 - 15:01

I have been following along on this tread off an on over the weeks and I have not seen many US breeders mentioned here. I saw Spartanville and Kavalliere mentioned

A few others in the USA who are breeding titled dogs of pure East German Lineage- and who produced dogs that have gone on to title in Schutzhund or to work as Police K9's

Schraderhaus K9- Jean Schrader WA
Weberhaus GSD - Malinda Weber KS Currently active in Schutzhund and police k9 training

My kennel is SentinelHarts and I am located in CA.
Most of my dogs are pure East German lineage but I do have a few that are not
I am active in Schutzhund and am a member of both USCA and DVG having trialed pure East German dogs in 2017 - 2019
V Vilko von der Feuersaule IPO3
V Pepe von Weltwitz IGP3

I also have produced pure East German Lineage dogs that have gone on to earn titles in the past few years
O'Hara von SentinelHarts IPO1 2017
Envy von SentinelHarts HGH 2018
Xcorpio von SentinelHarts HGH 2019
Union Rags von SentinelHarts IPO1, HXAs HIAd 2016

I rarely agree to stud service outside my kennel, not because I am against it but because so few breeders bring a titled and health tested bitch.







Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 10 January 2020 - 06:01

Yeah sorry ValK - I'm mis-interpreting what you've said a bit; I went back and re-read our PM conversations of over a year ago and find that most of the dogs and practices you were talking about involved not the E German Police, but the Red Army (USSR) side of the Border. You wrote at one point that you 'hoped' these crosses with European Shepherds and Black Russian Terriers did not occur on the E German side. But it seems to me if there were dogs available and the temptation was there, it probably will have, sometimes. In any case you also pointed out that record keeping among the E German Border Patrols was not like the SV record keeping we all know and 'love'. It is those gaps that make me wonder.

None of this would probably be of any relevance today, if it were not for this insistence that 'DDR dogs / lines' still exist, uninterrupted; and if the prevailing thoughts about the product of these, currently on sale, did not seem to be aimed, often as not, at those looking for something that does not really reflect what you were telling me about in terms of temperament. I'm sticking to my assessment: far too much hype around. And once again far too much 'tinkering' with what the breed ought to be. Have we really not had enough of such meddling ? Look what it has done to split the breed, in all its current shapes and temperaments. [And to split US, the fanciers.]  Look at the days of GSDs being treated like pariahs, by public and media, because they were 'all' thought 'too sharp' (in those days due to weak temperaments).  Want to go back there ? Like I wrote, it would be better if those who see something 'necessary' in this ... well, 'myth', I think ... go off and do their own thing instead of sticking with the GSD Breed.


by apple on 10 January 2020 - 06:01

Sentinelharts,
It is my understanding that the old DDR dogs did not participate in Schutzhund, at least during and shortly after the war. Considering that the foundation DDR lines tended to produce dogs with low prey drive, how do you rate your DDR dogs' prey drive?

sentinelharts

by sentinelharts on 10 January 2020 - 12:01

apple-

My male Vilko von der Feuersaule is very high prey, high ball/toy drive and switches seamlessly between prey and defense. He likes the fight and enjoys bitework. He lacks pack drive which is probably the largest obstacle he has in the sport of Schutzhund, he is just simply self serving. He is a great working dog, very suitable for police/k9 work but for modern sport, we were never going to V. I consider him high drive

Pepe von Weltwitz has medium prey drive and medium ball/toy drive which translated into lack of enthusiasm in modern sport obedience. He has very nice defensive aggression and is best suited as a personal protection dog but would also be a decent police k9. While we did decent in Schutzhund, the precision required in the primary and secondary obedience was not there due to his lack of drive for a reward. He has nice pack drive and worked in obedience because I asked him to. He is an great tracking dog, slow but methodical. I consider him medium drive

Bill vom Kranich's hof - (13 yrs old now) worked mostly in prey drive but had decent defensive drive. Bill has good pack drive and a decent ball drive, low food drive. I would consider him overall high-medium drive

My newest male Bashan von Picasso seems to be fairly high ball drive, over medium prey drive. I have not yet gotten into his defensive drives. He is chewy on the bite which is my first priority item to work on in preparation for titling him further.

It is my opinion that in modern schutzhund, the dog needs to have substantial prey drive, substantial pack drive/bidability and resilience to be truly competitive.

While I enjoy the sport of schutzhund, I do it more to gain understanding of the dog's individual strengths and weaknesses. Its the journey more than the destination.


by duke1965 on 10 January 2020 - 12:01

LOL apple, DDR dogs didnot do anything during the war and short thereafter, since there was no DDR before october 7 1949

by duke1965 on 10 January 2020 - 12:01

for a long time people didnot need higher preydrive dogs to train and title in SchHund

DDR sieger 1949 Roland vom teglerforst was a SshH 3 ans so where all siegers short thereafter, DDR sieger 1958 Armin haus pflanz was a SchH1, but im not sure these dogs would qualify for "DDR "type dogs, or from what year that the DDR breeding would have taken a truely different turn to what would be called border type dogs


by apple on 10 January 2020 - 13:01

I was thinking of East German resulting due to the war and that the DDR military dogs did not engage in sport. My point was they were not selected for high prey drive. Even the West German dogs back then were not so prey driven because the use of prey drive was not used as a training tool and the sport of schutzhund/IPO has changed so much requiring a different type of dog to compete at top levels.

by apple on 10 January 2020 - 13:01

I was thinking of East German resulting due to the war and that the DDR military dogs did not engage in sport. My point was they were not selected for high prey drive. Even the West German dogs back then were not so prey driven because the use of prey drive was not used as a training tool and the sport of schutzhund/IPO has changed so much requiring a different type of dog to compete at top levels.





 


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