Take care of your old school proven bloodlines for the future - Page 1

Pedigree Database

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 04 December 2019 - 12:12

Some people maybe don,t agree

My forecast for the future we get more and more softer and weaker dogs , because with all that
political interference about forbidden tools, the E-collar is forbidden in juli 2020 in Holland this will
mean IMO the training level and breeding program will get on an other level, the more difficult harder and extra diven
dogs will more and disapear the real dogs and bloodlines we will need for LE street, special( forces) missions real protection etc,etc
will also get on an other level. Invest primarily in good females with that oldschool bloodlines what we have or invest in
frozen semen so you have some basisc bloodlines for your own future. GSD , Malinois or whatever be smart when that oldchool bloodlines are gone you will never get them back !!!



 

 


by apple on 04 December 2019 - 13:12

I think the KNPV program has made the Dutch dogs some of the best working dogs, but is a double edged sword. While some of the old school dogs can be very dominant, the KNPV training culture historically has been very heavy handed on pups and dogs, which washes out all but the strongest. The down side of that is too many trainers don't take the time to teach the dog how to learn and what to learn through anything but compulsion, and there is an easier, more effective way. The result is you get dogs that haven't learned how to learn and figure things out, that are very high in drive, and they are being trained wearing two or three e- collars. I know trainers try to keep these approaches out of the public eye, but it is the truth. I recently heard of one trainer who basically had a small concrete block on a stick and would hit the dog in the head when the dog wasn't displaying the correct behavior, but that was likely because the dog was never taught the behavior correctly. I recently saw that dog in person and he is a strong, powerful dog that will flatten a decoy, but he is very social and never needed that kind of training in Holland. He is not a dominant dog. It is like the approach for all trainers is the same, which washes of the softer dogs, but is a poor training approach for many of the stronger dogs. But you can't argue with the results.

BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 04 December 2019 - 13:12



Apple I talk about genetics hard dominant ,hIgh turbo driven dogs ,fight skills ,hard pushing grips real protection etc etc are not the result of training abracadabra

Its true there are different level of dog trainers some trainers have better skills than others by experience
and knowldege and some peope are born K9 trainers and others not.

A few people can work with all typ of dogs and some of that trainers CAN select special typ of dogs
and genetics what other people can,t train example , when the dog is better than the handler this happen a lot and the dog must replace not the trainer.That dog can have very good gentics for breeding and than its lost

by apple on 04 December 2019 - 13:12

I guess I am saying the more skilled and knowledgeable trainers can train most any dog, often without resorting to strictly severe compulsion, but that "fault" of over relying on heavy handed training washes out the weaker dogs.

Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 04 December 2019 - 14:12

Apple, I grew up on Koehler and others like him and at the time I thought it was the best way to train a dog. Of course as one matures and hopefully learns, ideas and actions change.
I see absolutely zero reason to become that type of physical with a dog for that kind of infraction. I knew of an old KNPV trainer back in the early 80's that employed the stick and a nail at the end of it and that is how he corrected dogs.
That thought currently turns my stomach, but, the end result was, as you said, a very successful program that produced some great dogs.

While I see nothing wrong with the judicious use of the E collar, and I have seen them used 2 and 3 at a time, it my opinion, it is overkill. Strapping one on to a dog's chest to train a precise "heel" is BS of the highest quality and you need to check your qualifications as a trainer.
I have never understood the value of dog sport and the need to train a dog to that precise level to win a $5 plastic trophy.
I am a huge proponent of BALANCED training.

BM, I dont think trainers in Holland or elsewhere in Europe will stop using the E collar, they are still doing it in countries that it is no longer allowed. As far as producing the tough, hard, dominant dogs, that is a tough choice today, most people cant handle them, most dont want them.

BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 05 December 2019 - 05:12



Western when its forbidden using E-collar on KNPV clubs than its over hope you will understand
There will be sanctions and you will be expel simple as that.
Maybe some people will say goodbye and will practicing on hidden privat locations
What many people also not realise dominant hard dogs we need also for the real jobs maybe the sport people not, but for LE Police and military sure ,,too many sport dogs are too soft and weak when it become serious today more and more .



by apple on 05 December 2019 - 07:12

Hired Dog,
Your comment about precision in dog sport is another reason the KNPV program is so successful and a double edged sword. The program was developed to help produce and select high quality police dogs. The obedience precision in KNPV is very low because it is not needed for a police dog. It needs to be reliable but not precise. As a result, there is not much foundation that would contribute to precision in obedience, but the other side of that precision is not just for points, but also for control. This is especially important with more extreme dogs in that the foundation should teach the dog how to control his drive and attend so the dog can learn and you get good control without harsh training approaches. The only advantage of using heavy handed training is for people who don't know how to read a dog as it is learning and adjust the training, and as I said, it washes out all but the hardest, toughest dogs. It is a very different culture from IGP, especially in the states, where people will go to great lengths to mask temperament issues to get a dog titled. In the states, most people see their dog as a companion and it is the minority that will get rid of a dog as soon as they see the dog is lacking. In Holland, if a dog shows softness or nerve issues, or lack or drive, the handler will wash the pup/dog out and try to find a better prospect. Even with very dominant dog, I think the Dutch could learn better approaches and knowing when to pick your battles. Plus some of the very dominant dogs get sold to various handlers and are often abused along the way making the problems worse. The use of nails or spikes of some kind is not that uncommon with these warrior/dominant type dogs. If you think about it, circus trainers train lions and tigers and would not use that type of approach.

by ValK on 05 December 2019 - 20:12

blackMalinois what it worth:
old breeders, who's producing quantity for mass market, already washed out of their programs decent dogs decades ago.
new generation of breeders grown on the ideals of sport usage and don't have even slightest clue that GSDs has potential to be
something else than circus performers.
dedicated fanatical aficionados in breeding always been and still somewhere there but are very rare and typically do not produce
many dogs, do not run advertising campaign thus not known and obviously do not have any impact on trends of mass breeding.

apple
training by itself is secondary and without appropriate genetic foundation worth not much.

Hired Dog
most likely goal of such handlers not 5 buck plastic prize but stud fees or inflated price tag on pups.

 


Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 06 December 2019 - 06:12

Apple, I am very familiar with the KNPV program, it was my first exposure to dog training, so, I understand exactly what you are saying and I agree.
I know the attitude Stateside is very different versus the one adopted by the KNPV trainers and I do find that attitude over there admirable when it comes to working dogs. Most people here will disagree with that sentiment, but, look at the dogs here...

I also understand the desire to get and maintain control over some of these super tough dogs, but, for me, personally, I need to ask myself how far am I willing to go with the punishment option, what am I comfortable dishing out at this point and for what purpose? The short answer is sir and always has been, proper selection first and training after. I have no need to boast about how tough my dog is or any such drivel, so long as the dog does the job it was selected for.
I do not need a "warrior" type of dog that is a pain in the ass to live with daily because it has its own ideas that always conflict with mine and I most certainly do not need to "wear" that dog 3 times a month.
I believe a balanced approach is best in my selection and training of such dogs and it has not failed me yet in the last 20 years when my approach to training changed drastically compared to what it was before.

Yes, it is a double edge sword as you put it, and it would be different if the original handler kept that dog and worked it for life, but, selling it to someone who may not be familiar with that type of "toughness" is not fair to the new handler nor the dog and that is when the abuse you spoke of starts.

Valk, how far are you willing to push the cruelty factor to make some money of an animal? I am not accusing you personally, its a general question.

by apple on 06 December 2019 - 06:12

Valk,
Your distain for sport is shining through again. Not all protection sports are the same. Technically, KNPV is a sport. All the protection sports have dogs that can excel as police patrol dogs. If you are not training a dog to be operational in some type of real world application, sport is all that is left if you want to grow as a handler and enjoy your dog. Again, IMO, people who are so anti sport probably haven't trained a dog to any level of precision and lack the knowledge and skills to do so. As for appropriate genetic foundation, I think most know what a bad or marginal dog is, but appropriate genetics can result in many different types of dogs. There are dogs that are very social and strong and there are dogs that are mistrustful and strong and the exact opposite can occur resulting in inadequate social or mistrustful dogs. There are very high prey drive dogs that are strong and some that are not because they are lacking other traits. There are low threshold highly defensive dogs that are strong and some that are weak.





 


Contact information  Disclaimer  Privacy Statement  Copyright Information  Terms of Service  Cookie policy  ↑ Back to top