Europe Breeders - Page 11

LOL if I go heeling with my male and hit him with a metal stick with spikes im sure he will be agressive as well, i would say the agression I see in west sport lines is different agression than what I see in old czech lines, I wouldnot know many/any old czech dogs that have handler agression, other than when being handled idiotic, I can make my dog Xido become handleragressive, but just as easy I can work and handle him without any risk, 

posession/frustration agression is seen more in higher drive dogs, which is not most common trait for old czech/slovak lines, 

talking DDR lines, im not sure, dont know enough of those and dont know about actual character traits of dogs like boban, saw offspring off him that didnot look like strong/stubborn/dominant or agressive, rather the opposite

so apple that was all about the strong dogs you know, would be interested to know more of that type of dogs if anyone knows them ?

Apple, I do not see the value of having to resort to that type of training for any reason, but, especially for sport. What is he trying to prove? Anyone can beat a dog into submission or work a dog up and make it handler aggressive, but, why?
Its people like him that give training a bad name and then the general public complains and wants to ban E collars...if they only knew the depths that some are willing to sink at to score a couple more point, disgusting.

BTW, I am not some precious flower, I have given my share of corrections to dogs when needed and they were temperament as well as offense appropriate, but, for me, there is a line I am not willing to cross because then you become abusive for no reason.
If the dog in question cannot, because of genetic temperament, accomplish the goals you set out for it, wash it and replace it, I have no problem with that.
On the other hand, why take a dog that has huge control issues, knowing that and insisting upon taking it anyway, only to have to resort to physical abuse with metal rods and spikes and such BS?
Proper decorum prevents me from explaining to you what I would like to do with that spiked metal rod and the individual who used it on a dog, but, it does not involve any K-Y jelly....

The handler used the spiked heeling stick because the dog was handler aggressive and very aggressive to anyone else. Not all GSDs with very strong aggression are Czech.

Apple - perhaps a good handler could find another way to gain compliance/control.....it's not always about dominance/submission, but other methods take a lot more time. Some people either don't have the knowledge, patience or time, in which case they should consider getting another dog (as Hired Dog already stated) rather than abusing the dog they have.

I said this person has been on the U.S. team at the WUSV and is experienced. I don't know the history of the dog, but apparently he was very aggressive/dominant. He had the knowledge and time. I don't know about the patience or if this dog came to him already like this.

Apple, the behavior you described between that WUSV handler and his dog is disgusting.  The use of a metal rod with spikes is not punishment, it is abuse. 

…”a well known IPO competitor who was on the US team at the worlds came to our club when I wasn't there. He had a metal heeling stick with many very sharp spikes coming out of it and had to beat the dog with the stick to get him to heel because he was so aggressive and dominant”..

I strongly encourage you to contact the parent organization and provide them the details to the events that transpired at your club.  If you feel uncomfortable or it’s not your place, then by all means PM me that information and I will make sure the issue is addressed. 

The thought that I may be funding, through my membership, this type of behavior is very troubling. 

I agree and would never train a dog that way, but severe compulsion is very common in Europe. E-collars are banned in Holland and they fry dogs all the time because they either refuse or don't know better ways to train. I'm not getting into who this is, but I'm sure USCA knows about this person and has had issues with them before. The person will likely not be a future member of the U.S. team. USCA has a reputation for corruption.

@duke19655: ...i would say the agression I see in west sport lines is different agression than what I see in old czech lines..

Based on what you see currently or in dogs of the past...or regardless? Aggression of old CZ lines different from old eastern (DDR) lines? 

@apple: E-collars are banned yet they (Dutch) fry dogs all the time and severe compulsion is very common in Europe…

Really that systemic?  

 

like I said, cant say much about DDR dogs, as I dont know a lot of them, and the ones i worked/owned would make nice familydogs, not more,

the difference between west and old czech would be best described as west line dogs having full circle agression,with origin in prey/frustration and/or handleragression, where old czech lines mostly have focussed or directed agression, originated from civil agression

that is all general speaking as there are good and bad, and ups and downs on both sides