Reckless Aggression , where does it comme from, and which lines are known to pass it down? - Page 6

GK1
That prey has nothing to do with protection/fight (per Valk) I contend is incomplete theory. Prey can be an important component to sustaining, projecting, pursuing and dominating.

have you ever known the case in which predatory animals does hunt for another, superior to them predators? such  like the fox, who's hunting for the wolf, the wolf, who's hunting for the bear, etc.
in this regard dogs aren't differ. so what more do you need to complete theory? 
the dogs, motivated to attack by prey/hunt drive, will do it only if absolutely confident that prey don't pose threat to their life. look how simple frontal attack have being prepared. first stage is to convince the dog that doing so, the dog won't be hurt. thus imprinting into dog's mind false confidence - object of attack, albeit is bigger, noisier and looks like full of rage, but in fact is not really dangerous and harmful.
today, if sport or LE will start to use in protection training even RELATIVELY harsh resistance, they will be left without the dogs for respective utilization.

apple
Regardless reckless entries with some Mals, I have never seen a GSD that could match the extreme entries of some Mals.

sort of like this one :)
but what use of such recklessness, if dog is coward?

 

GK .... But let us also keep on mknd that prey and protection [ defending ] do go hand in had and are confluent. Connsidering any predatory animal this plays out : Prey behaviors [ staring , stalking , pouncing , chasing , biting* etc , etc ] and those defending behaviors [ guarding , warning , possessing , biting ** etc etc ] . So   ... Apple is making a point  : Recklessness has to be defined specifically for proper conveying of ideas, because an animal can be wreckless in prey , by taking chances that need not be taken  by eliciting those behaviors and , an animal can be wreckless in defending defending behaviors that it ilicits too . Have you seen dogs for example that just can't help themselves but to keep chasing ? I had a GS that would literally chase until he dropped dead. If I had not stopped what he was doing he would have run until he literlaly dropped dead from heat stroke.

How do we describe in quantity and qualify what constitutes [ makes up ] , Recklessness. Not making a point to agree or disageee with anyone , but I think we should talk in precise , accurate and terms and defimtions . Recklessness to me occurs when : The dog is acting an overexagerated out of the [ social ] normal manner because the dog is not able to control itself [ and/ or be controlled ] , and the dog has no Caution or Regard to / about , placing itself in danger . The dog simply has no ' Regard or Mindfulness '.

If someone sees " Recklessness " differently then I do , humbly I welcome further elaboration of the defintion of Recklessness..

Valk,
I said you can only tell so much based on those reckless entries. Some of those dogs might lack courage or be very courageous.

apple
sure. but have you ever thought that courage, to remain in fight with superior opponent, actually based not on hunt instinct? albeit attack did begin as a hunt.
according to your view, prey driven dog in some cases can turn out to be courageous dog but dog without prey drive by default cannot be brave enough for fight? :)

Apple ...yes ... ther lies sublte differences and as unsual I say " Just Depends ". A dog can lack courage ... and enters a situation because it is " enraged" , meaning it has no absolute or very very very little thought to what it is doing..That is to say it simply ACTS [ out of control ] .... and that action is not eminating from the normal state of mindfulness , sort to speak . I am saying a dog with or without courage can act the same : recklessness . So I agree , as I often write , not all aggression is the same .. and IMOp not all ' Recklessness ' is the same " either. IMOp , a dog can be quite courageous or direly fearing for it's life , lacking courage , and be enraged out of control and lacking mindfulness about any possible danger. One goes like the wind and the other is way past the perception of danger because it has already has percieved it and is way past the perception of any future danger .

My point of view is not that a dog with very low drive cannot be brave enough to fight. My point of view is that a prefer a dog with good prey drive and good defense and IMO the best dogs have a lot of both which contributes to strong fighting instincts.

Cent, I like your definition as it ties in the dog’s motivation in relation to the behavior. In short, the dog performs a behavior that overrides the safety check and balances that common sense bestows upon him. Something triggered an action that the dog would typically not do. A dog would not typically reach his head into a campfire, but the desire to get his toy suppressed the checks and balances intended to keep him from harms way.

Valk, the video you posted shows the dog come off the bite. I do not know this dog, but I worked with a couple dogs who would release if I got close to them on an actual bite. Two stand out and both involve the dog holding onto the leg of the suspects as they were trying to clear fences and both had me running at the dog to grab the leg. I am certain this is from my own doing and a consequence of strapping the dog when they refused to obey the release and return command.

Valk,
If you think about it, the goal of hunt drive is to capture and kill. The goal of defensive aggression is to chase the perceived threat away. Some dogs can and have killed people and it happens every year. Often, this behavior is not triggered by a threat toward the dog. A larger reason dogs, that are properly raised and socialized,don't typically see humans as prey is because they tend to see us as their adopted "cousins" if you will and dogs are not cannibalistic by nature. Competitive aggression/fight drive, where when the opponent of the dog ratchets up the fight, the dog ratchets up the fight even more, especially and usually seen in Mals with extreme prey and hunt drive, has little to nothing to do with defensive aggression. It is about hunt, prey and possession. That means less worry/more courage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OyN4pBMAco

 

 

 

 

Valk, Here is a video of defense testing of some Caucasian Shepherd dogs. They are clearly trying to chase the threat away and show little interest in fighting. They have shallow defensive grips and quickly stop biting rather than trying to subdue of defeat their opponent. They simply want him to go away. Low prey, high defense dogs. They look pretty weak to me. Their size is intimidating, but that is about it.

@K9L1

Pitbull/mali/dutch shepherd cross mix

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZILWEof1g&t=24s