Why do some dogs maul? - Page 4

Pedigree Database


by apple on 04 September 2019 - 19:09

I agree you have to know where to look, but my point was that the desirable gene pool is shrinking instead of improving.

by K9L1 on 04 September 2019 - 20:09

Black Mal
Thanks for that info. Carlos Van Vos was a Wibo half brother and a difficult dog as well. Don’t know all those Dutch kennels you speak of . Also aware that some of the most feared civil dogs came out of line / inbreeding on Arno Kleine Scaars ; produce some really mean dogs that would hand your ass in a moment’s notice.

by ValK on 05 September 2019 - 01:09

i do not doing stat researches but from what i see i believe that overwhelming majority of todays so call working lines produce
sort of never maturing dogs, who do see a human as a prey. in meaning not prey to consume but prey to play.
play-prey partnership.

Hired Dog
look, it's true that society under communist rule wasn't "happy to sue you" society. but it doesn't mean anyone can act recklessly
with no consequences. if law won't punish, the victim or close ones will do.
comparing dogs at typical household in the former eastern bloc to western counterpart, there overall very obviously prevailed
aggressive type of dogs. regardless of breeds or purity. but accidents, involving dog's attack, was very rare and i truly can't recall
even single case of lethal outcome because of dog attack.
professional (in meaning as generation of income) commercial breeding of dogs among civilian wasn't there. specialized border
purpose breeding was very strict in approach and selection and harsh in weeding out unsatisfactory results. well, everything is
relative. only now i understand how much i was blessed to have had opportunity to work and own those shepherd dogs and to
know from personal experience what kind of outstanding dogs this breed can give.
anyway, i cannot totally agree with your blame of society. commercial breeders should carry main responsibility for degradation
of GSD breed but that different topic.


by BlackMalinois on 05 September 2019 - 07:09


@ K9L1 No Carlos was a full brother from Wibo van Leeuwen

BRN 11073

Yes Arno was a notorious dog as well if you looking for a stud with a fitting female
try BRN 21995 Arno Maatman bloodlines over Arno Kleine Schaars en Duco 2
and Castor de Groot ..oldschool quality.


by Hired Dog on 05 September 2019 - 10:09

Good morning Valk,
Commercial breeders will breed what is popular and marketable today, their interest is in making money.
ALL breeds have suffered in that regard in the last 20-30 years, but, breeds that do bite work more so.
It is society that dictates everything we have today and which way we move forward. People now are not interested in what you call a "good shepherd", they want a nervy whatever, preferably small that can make them feel good.
In 20 years, the only place you will find a good dog, will be in a museum and I am sure that the ones who repeat my "pet peeve", "they are out there, you just have to know where to look", without ever actually telling you WHERE to look, will still be saying that.

by apple on 05 September 2019 - 11:09

Based on many of your comments, I think you are very familiar with a specific type of dog, specifically the old DDR dogs, which were largely a defensive dog. GSDs are much more dimensional than that and the old DDR dogs were a small subset of the breed. Dogs are essentially infantized wolves that have been domesticated. Prey drive and play drive are different and both contribute to a good working dog temperament provided other traits are there. Prey drive is related to food acquisition which is related to survival. Biting the prey and shaking it to death are prey drive actions. Prey drive can be very intense in some dogs and can add to seriousness in bite work and is useful in relieving stress when a dog is heavily pressured such as with channeling a dog from defense to prey. Play drive is different and its purpose is to help young dogs practice adult behaviors in a non risky way so they can learn. It can involve stalking, chasing moving objects, guarding food, objects or territory, and practicing dominance through wrestling matches. It is also linked to fighting behavior. It allows pups and young adults to measure themselves against humans. Dogs with extensive play drive can develop a well rounded fighting drive. By itself, play drive is not enough to provide the seriousness we want to see in a dog, but it is a catalyst for seriousness if other traits are there genetically. Play drive also makes training fun and successful. IMO, the influence of sport has lead to too many unbalanced dogs. For example, in today's schutzhund, all you really need is a dog with good prey and play drives and decent nerves. My point is that play drive is a valuable trait but it has to be part of a dog's drive package that includes other things. However, if you go back to the video I posted of Wibo van Leeuwen, I think probably he has little play drive, but I don't think he is primarily a defensive dog like the old DDR dogs were. I also don't think he is likely to be a high prey drive dog. I think he is simply a dog with true strong forward aggression, dominance and social aggression. The value of true social aggression over defensive aggression is that there is no element of flight because the socially aggressive dog is not worried like the defensive dog. Dogs like Wibo are becoming rare. They are not at all pets and need experienced handlers and vigilant supervision around strangers. If you were to ask the average person if they have ever heard of a German Shepherd, the majority would say yes. If you asked if they ever heard of a Dutch Shepherd, the majority would say no. The old DDR dogs are gone, the strong West German dogs are becoming increasingly rare, and the breeding of old style Mals and Dutchies is in the minority. So I don't necessarily disagree with your comments about there being fewer serious GSDs, but play drive can be a desirable trait when balanced with other desirable traits. Back to Wibo, while he is a great dog, I doubt he was much fun to train and is limited in settings he can be in without total supervision.


by BlackMalinois on 05 September 2019 - 11:09


Interesting to see people give opinions about dogs who they never seen for real

Wibo was more a X malinois with stripes than a Dutch Shepherd anyway if you do some homework
Some people can better don,t write idiot theories about dogs who they never seen for real or worked

with them and how can they ever discuss and opinions about this dogs,stories and more idiot stories

What I tell 100,s time on this forum its the market what determines, let me say it simple if Police need social purple dogs they don,t need  A-social orange  dogs. If we all breed A-social  orange dogs than they have a problem.



by apple on 05 September 2019 - 14:09

If you are referring to my comments, can you clarify what "idiot" theories I wrote about and about which dog. Regarding Wibo, from what I have learned about him, while his prey drive is good, it is not over the top compared to some Dutch lines. Regarding him not being defensive, my understanding is that his aggression comes more from social aggression, dominance and fight than defensiveness. If that is the case, a truly socially aggressive dog will bite a stranger simply because they are a stranger, and I have read from Dick, his dogs tend not to dogs he lets other people be around socially. The demand for dogs are probably greater in Holland because of the tactics used by the police in the U.S. that require a different type of dog.


by BlackMalinois on 05 September 2019 - 15:09

@ apple

Personal I can only give a good honest opinion from a dog who I worked with or decoyed with
personal not from the www or stories from others . I never listen only to owners or stories and watching videos only.
and than make a conclusion that is in my eyes very stupid and naive

And I,m for sure there is not so much different demand for dogs between Holland or the US
why because people here for any reason think that bitework is the most important it isn,t
In Holland.US and worldwide the tracking and detection dogs are the most important K9,s, here
they need ball ,food drive social dogs not social agressive dogs who don,t care about balldrive. The only different is US have also dual
pupose K9,s here in Holland whe have seperate the specialist detection dogs and seperete the bite dogs because
the justice system is different with other rules.

In the 80,s in Holland they some social agressive  dogs in duty who bite everybody this dogs were dangerous they call them staatsgevaarlijk today they need social dogs for bitework have also to do with the K9 police handlers some get problems or can,t control those agressive  dogs . A good social dog with enough courage,drives  and hardness and is in balance on and off switch  can do any streetwork .

I read a lot of nonsense here about KNPV from people who never been there, and than false information is on this forum ,nobody from the KNPV can defend them because they are not member here on this board.

by apple on 05 September 2019 - 16:09

My information on Wibo and the van Leeuwen lines come from Dick and Selena and Mike Suttle, not videos. Are you saying Dick's strongest dog are dogs they let go around children and strangers unsupervised? That is not what they have said. When Mike imported Arko Kikkert  he had to kennel the dog for ten days without food before he could approach the dog. Also, some of these extreme KNPV dogs might not have social aggression in the sense they will bite anyone outside of their pack, but some of them enjoy a fight so might, subtle body language that the dog perceives as strange could trigger the dog to bite. It is hard enough to find dogs that are appropriate to be operational and even harder to find a dog that is so strong and confident, he can thrive in some of the toughest cities and still be good around children and strangers.


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