Pulling instead of Pushing Bite - Page 6

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by K9L1 on 29 June 2019 - 16:06

Centurion I find that you have a bit shifted your argument to fit what you believe. You are now saying that a pulling bite can come from either a strong or less confident dog . The dog I posted is determined to and is dragging the “ prey” down the pathway ; in the video overall there is very little evidence that this 1 year old dog is afraid of the prey. What is your evaluation if his state of mind?

by ValK on 29 June 2019 - 16:06

duke
people can pretend to be someone they are not, dogs dont have that mindset 

that's true. but people manipulates dogs to make them looks not what they are but how they want others to see those dogs.
everyone know this and everyone pretends that such problem do not exist :)


by K9L1 on 29 June 2019 - 16:06

I agree with Valk that much of the natural aggression in the GSD of today has been lost. The very good natural dominance aggression can still be found in the older bloodlines of the KNPV dutch x mal crosses; names like Arno, Ducco, Rambo, Arras, Rocky, Rico, Biko, Wibo, and Carlos Van Vos come to mind. Even in the KNPV the newer dogs are shifting towards a more social dog, but whose aggression comes through prey and possession.

by duke1965 on 29 June 2019 - 21:06

 

Valk, agree on that, but that is not what im talking about, dog will follow drives and will never pretend by its own choice

@ K9L1 KNPV is definately getting more sporty, and wouldnot call it agression, that comes trough prey, I would call it frustration, which can be a good trait,in experienced hands, but can turn to the handler as well

by Centurian on 29 June 2019 - 21:06

Duke .. you are twisitng words a little bit . Many times I have seen , and I am quite sure that youn have too , dogs that people thought were courageous because they did so called protection . How many times I had to explain to someone that the dog was not fighting because it was courageous but just the opposite , the dog was worried. How many dogs have an exaggerated response by biting because they are worried yet they look like they were troopers ? So not everything is at it seems to be , is it ? Duke , dogs are not people , but many times I have writtenthat I use people as example to enable people to better understand the dogs. Duke , doesn't matter .. prey or whatever . Anytime a dog want to posses something that is not hisown and he attempts to obtain it , that is an aggression . That is also exerting his will over some one else too . Just like someone taking something from you , Duke . That is a conflict and an aggression against you . Dogs do push , they push people not just physically but psychologically , overtly and subtlety [ active or passive] . Anytime one party wants to take something from another party and there is resistance , call it by any terminolgy , by any semantics it is a conflict , a challenge , a fight . Fight by my definition : is a conflict whereby one party sustains the conflict. I usually do not talk min ' foolish terminolgy such as drives - you've read this from me before . But for conversations sake , do not people in the dogworld talk about " fight drive'? Pushing has a lot to do with courage , if you want to sustain the encounter . Even If one want to defend himself , or a dog defend itslef , pushing can have a lot to do with courage and asserting yourself to be safe and victorious. I fail to understand your post < am I misreading what you are trying to say ? Not everything is absolute in the dog world , much just .. Depends ... K9 some dogs that have been reinforced to ' pull ' while biting are very good dogs and they can be very confident . Some peoole do not realize thatn they even reinforced that behavior in a dog. For some dogs , even the leaning forward towards them , they can learn to counter by even if slightly , very very slightly , going back with a reciprocal lean . That is whay when I intetract with my 8 week puppies I always go backwards as they come into my body from the fron, ALWAYS . The moments they get me and I lean forward , aand they lean bacvk .. thatbis the start of teaching a dog to pull . I do not let that happen but even once . That pulling as someone had referenced became a conditined behavior. Other times a dog that pulls is very very weak . They are in conflict in the sense that they bare trying to solve a problem , and by the means of biting . But at the same time they want to get the heck 'out of here' , sort to speak , and protect themselves from harm . K9 , when I look at dogs .. I do not put them into cartegories. Anyone that has read my posts realize , I don't even like decribing dogs and using cliche term as such as prey and defense. I do not look at dogs in the absolute . So much depends simply on that individual dog. As for me , I look into the dog , if I can . K9 , I haven't looked at that video .. but I will say this to you : I do not size up a dog just because it pulls on the bite . Sometimes I can see other attributes or signs of what the dog is thinking and feeling. Sometimes I get the info that I need from 1 video , other times , depending what I am looking for, I like to see the dog more than once in different contexts . One time a friend of mine looked at a video for a police GS . Several people said , as he did say , that was a good dog. I took one look at that dog , in one video where the dog seemed to be fantastic , and another second video of the dog supposedly also doing a fantastic bark and hold. Hoever , in the bark and hold that dog's ears were so far back they could touch his behind. Meaning that dog did not have the emotion, state of mind that I wanted . The dog could not express confidence in the bark/ hold , and even though he looked ferocious and intimidating , the dog was not ! That dog was not for my friend. Somtimes it is hard to see in 1 video if a behavior is learned behavior or that behavior is not from learning . So I am not always quick to label a dog . just by seeing a dog pull . Then again sometimes the dog pulling shows definate signs that it is weak , such as whining , rigity / stifffness in the body , hair erect, and growling while pulling on the bite. Sometimes the dog tells me he is weak even before he gets the bite, Just by how he moves to my movments ., turns his hard away , scratches the ground/sniffs . So for me , many things are not absolute, carved in stone , categorical , and depends on the dog ,on the contect and on other factors. So often I do not flip on my comments .. much simply depends.... BTW , sometimes a dog not outing is from weakness / insecurity too .... DEPENDS .....
emoryg

by emoryg on 29 June 2019 - 23:06

I have shared this before, but for those who have never seen what an inside bicep bite looks like on the streets, I will attach the link.

These bites, or any bite where the dog is caught inside the extremities and/or towards the midline of the suspect are very dangerous.  

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ar8qg3mhvtmj0fz/armedrobber1.JPG?dl=0


by Juno on 30 June 2019 - 00:06

i have a similar picture of a bicep bite where my dog left bruises with teeth marks after biting through a suit and an arm guard. I posted in Hans's forum - Alpine K9 under the thread - "bloodlines with the strongest bite". Not that my dog has the strongest bite, but when he bites he is pretty commited.
emoryg

by emoryg on 30 June 2019 - 01:06

Juno, ouch!  Those bites are never fun.  My department always bought the largest suit they offered.  The material was same thickness, but there was more room inside to hide my body!  I preferred the sleeve and not worry about it.

I only worked with that dog for a little over three years.  Speaking of hard biters, he started to get his crest after his second year, so he was officially recognized as a knothead when I worked with him. Regular Smile   Such a fun dog to train and be around.  I would get him in a headlock and honk his nose.  He would give me a love bite in the rear and take off running.  Really good nose.   Had a good lion's roar too.  He really loved the bite-return game.  If he played by the rules he always got to carry the sleeve or suit back to the patrol car.  But he always had to run around shoving the equipment into the other k-9 handlers so he could play tug.  If you ignored him he would go to next person until he found someone who would fall for his trick.  Then he was like a dog with a stick, just wouldn’t leave you alone.  Too many laughs to remember!

by Juno on 30 June 2019 - 10:06

Emoryg,

I gather you checked out the picture in Han’s forum.

The dog you described sounds like a real character and sounds similar to the bonehead I have.

by Centurian on 08 July 2019 - 22:07

For wahtever it is worth :

https://youtu.be/7rd2kmmSjoQ

A video recently posted in another thread : A perfect example of the start of teaching a pup to pull while biting ' ... Wonderful, super puppies , but already learning to pull, pull, pull . What will they try to do again while biting ? .. yes you got it .. pull . pull , pull on the bite - just saying ..

K9 , I hope you see this .. pulling on the bite can very well be an intentional or an unintentional conditioned /learned behavior . Much just ' Depends' ....




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