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by apple on 09 May 2019 - 10:05

Valk,
If sleeves and suits were not used, the puppies and dogs you prepped were not actually taught to target a human because to target, a bite has to be involved. It sounds like you were agitating the dogs to get them to light up. That can create problems for a passive bite. Typically, bad guys are not going to come up to a GSD and start threatening him. Many dogs will light up when agitated at the end of a leash but not actually engage with a bite or take significant pressure from a person. If they were border patrol dogs, all they really needed to dog was light up and bark. Dogs that target areas like hands and lower part of legs are choosing the areas furthest from the center mass and face of the person and are often lacking in confidence and don't feel comfortable getting near the person's face. That is why KNPV and PSA choose a bicep bite because it is a better test of a dog's confidence. The only dog I ever worked that went for my face was a junkyard dog and it was a fear biter and could have easily been run. Many defensive dogs look tough at the end of a leash, but will not go out of their way to hunt and apprehend.

by duke1965 on 09 May 2019 - 12:05

BEEE ASSSShades Smile

by apple on 09 May 2019 - 13:05

What part of my post do you consider B.S.?

by duke1965 on 09 May 2019 - 13:05

Dogs that target areas like hands and lower part of legs are choosing the areas furthest from the center mass and face of the person and are often lacking in confidence and don't feel comfortable getting near the person's face.

 

all KNPV dogs do lower legbites to begin with, and you write dogs coming near face lack confidence, but also you say in same post that the only one dog that came for your face was a fear biter

you throw out way to many general assumptions and contradictions


by apple on 09 May 2019 - 13:05

With dogs, it is not a car, where you know exactly how the engine can perform, or the handling of the car, etc. Each dog is an individual and not a machine. I am referring to dogs that tend to target the hands or lower legs when then have not been trained to target. That behavior can be a sign that the dog is uncomfortable being up close to the decoy. Valk was saying his experience was not to teach dogs to target an area of the body, but rather, the man. Also targeting the lower leg or hand is one thing, but will the dog hold on under pressure. It sounded like Valk did more civil agitation that actual bite work. KNPV dogs are taught to target the leg. Plus, they confidently bite the bicep. I am sure you have seen dogs that will bite a forearm all day and not bite a bicep or will bite a bicep and work his way down the arm because he is not confident. The junkyard dog that I worked was just a defensive fear biter and would not actually bite anything but just jumped up and would snap at my face. It is not black and white with dogs.

by ValK on 09 May 2019 - 14:05

duke,
re-adjusting bite, interception of threatening move, infliction multiple injuries to opponent- natural behavior during the fight not only for dogs. in widespread today sport oriented training those abilities not utilized. preference given to single "bite and hold" action based on prey.
it's not really hard to teach the dog in direction of natural way of fight. but as i said - better to start earlier, from puppy stage and obviously that pup must be suitable, because for that the pain infliction should be involved and weak dog just will go into avoidance of fight if not cornered.

apple, please reread my previous post:)

by apple on 09 May 2019 - 14:05

Police departments do not want dogs inflicting multiple injuries. Biting and holding can have absolutely nothing to do with prey or sport oriented training.

by ValK on 09 May 2019 - 14:05

apple, i did notice that and i guess that's why sportism flourishing in prepping LE dogs.

 

b.t.w. last year here locally was article in news - police K9 was badly injured during apprehension. object wasn't hard core criminal but average teen. in news wasn't mentioned but most likely that teen was under fentanil or sort of and dog obviously not one, who been taught to intercept threatening movements.


by apple on 09 May 2019 - 14:05

It is not sportism. It has to do with potential liability for one thing. The other is the optics, a litigious society and political correctness. It is not like in the eastern block countries when the government owned everything and government agencies couldn't be sued.

by Juno on 10 May 2019 - 18:05

I may have posted this clip earlier - if I did my apologies. Thought, this might lead to some discussion of what Valk, Duke, and Apple are discussing about - what a dog will/might default to given the choice to make the decision on its own. Not sure if the link is working - might have to copy and paste in your web browser.

Here is a very short clip where things could have gone very wrong for the decoy. This is the first time we were doing leg bites with my dog - the first 2 times he did fine once I guided him on to the leg. The third time I gave him a little more leash to see if he would target the leg. He totally ignored the leg and went straight for the upper arm which is what he is used to target. Decoy was not wearing a suit and it was a mistake on my end. Could have been very bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQuihOOCrHw

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