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by apple on 07 May 2019 - 11:05

People should simply recognize that sport is sport and will never be real life. That does not mean a sport dog couldn't be a great police or military dog with a different foundation. But even police dogs should be taught to target different areas of the body where they can get the best grip and so they don't have to think about where to bite in order to engage as quickly as possible.
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 07 May 2019 - 11:05

@apple, don't know about being taught, most UK Police dogs seem to figure that one out for themselves pretty quickly in practice on the street - they will often grab anywhere. Never mind the niceties of 'full calm grip', all they want is a fast pain response from a quietened suspect. If that means the back of the calf (lower leg), so be it. That is not what they are taught in the Dog Section schools !

by apple on 07 May 2019 - 12:05

It is not as much about a full, calm grip as the advantages of teaching targeting. In police work, you want the dog reacting on habit, not thinking about what he is going to grip. Lack of targeting increases the likelihood the dog will not engage, especially when presented with opposition. It also creates a liability issue if the dog makes multiple bites and the department gets sued and the handler has to testify that the dog bites everywhere. Dogs that will bite anywhere, such as a hand, are less likely to have people who want to decoy them so the dog gets less good training. That does not mean that if a police dog is trained to target and can't get to an area he is habituated to bite, he will not bite. In that case, a good dog will bite whatever he can't get. There is a difference.
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 07 May 2019 - 15:05

So apple, are you proposing that teaching FOR targetting, (which really most of the time boils down to sleeve work) is correct; or are you in favour of teaching that ANY area of the body can be a target ? Isn't it rather difficult to teach both ?

by apple on 07 May 2019 - 18:05

I am referring to teaching targeting on a suit where the dog can get a solid grip and quickly subdue his opposition. That would include forearm, bicep, tricep, just above the back of the knee, etc. You typically wouldn't teach a dog to target the stomach because it is difficult to get a grip. Same for the center of the back. A good police dog will bite what he can. Targeting just increases the odds of successfully defeating the dog's opponent and builds his confidence during training.

by ValK on 07 May 2019 - 19:05

apple:
I am referring to teaching targeting on a suit where the dog can get a solid grip and quickly subdue his opposition.

so what gonna happen if you taught the dog to target suit but at some point that dog bumped into scenario, when object not wearing it?

Hundmutter:
Isn't it rather difficult to teach both ?

all depends on dog's personality.
it's not hard to do if dog perceive confrontation with human more like play/exercise. such dog more flexible for variations because not really human is target but rather object in human's possession.


different picture with dog who isn't predisposed much for play.
with such dog you can't get both way. if dog been taught to fight human, there are no way that that dog will continue to hang on sleeve or whatsoever else, when he see that at some point the threat come from another hand or leg.


by apple on 08 May 2019 - 11:05

Valk,
How do you think police dogs are trained? Do they bite a person not wearing a suit or any protective equipment? A dog taught to target different locations on a person's body who is wearing a suit has nothing to do with whether a dog will bite a person without equipment. That is so naïve, it is ridiculous. There are other factors to consider, such as the dog's genetics, whether he learns to work through any stress when pressured without the decoy letting the dog win too much, and the type of suit and the quality of the decoy are factors. Thick, Michelin Man suits don't allow the dog to feel the muscles and soft tissue moving under the suit like a competition suit does. Also, teaching a pushing bite helps to teach a dog how to fight a man with forward aggression.

by duke1965 on 08 May 2019 - 12:05

WOW LOL OMG , just some things crossing my mind reading

First important thing is that every dog is different, so should be trained and buildup differently for a certain job

some dogs will only bite desired position because they are trained/shaped to do so, some because they feel safe there and there alone due to genetics and training, ans some will do so in sport, but when pressured will not have a problem to re-target to other bodyparts

Agree with apple however, if a dog will bite a suit, doesnot mean he will bite in real life.

The type of dog that will out a bite, to bite another bodypart that looks like a bigger treath are far and few between, we need few more of those these days

by ValK on 09 May 2019 - 03:05

apple:
How do you think police dogs are trained?

i don't need to think. for number of years i was involved in prepping such dogs and as a matter of fact, no sleeves were used at all ever.
dogs from puppyhood was taught to target human, not suit. suits (b.t.w. crappy ones, homemade), was just a means to be less hurt from bites. lots of dogs was smart enough to figure out deceptiveness and try to reach exposed parts like hands, neck, face, lower part of legs.

duke1965:
The type of dog that will out a bite, to bite another bodypart that looks like a bigger treath are far and few between, we need few more of those these days

all dogs predisposed for this. it's kind of natural reaction which  being oppressed by typical modern training by fixating dogs on equipment (sleeve, suit and absence of real fight back from decoy).
you just need to develop that potential in dog from very young age.
there single condition - pup must have good aggression paired with stubbornness and good level of pain tolerance.

by duke1965 on 09 May 2019 - 04:05

all dogs predisposed?? really??


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