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by mrdarcy on 24 March 2019 - 10:03

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by stormins on 25 March 2019 - 18:03

Hundmutter

Thankyou for your well thought out answers

For clarity I am going to post your response in it's entirety since you gave me permission to do so,  then I will address each point individually, but not necessarily in numerical order as there is a lot of ground to cover and you have made some good points. 

What has happened has happened and the best thing at this point is expose the pattern of alleged deceptions by Alex and use this as a teaching tool for those researching a buy from any breeder, including a potential purchase from me.

 

Regarding: Your questions.)    

Sent Mar 20, 2019 05:52 PM from Hundmutter

I spent quite a while on Monday writing out an answer to your last post on your thred, only to lose the whole thing when I tried to post it. Kept getting an "internal server error" message; that's a new one on me, I've had posts do a disappearing act before but never seen that error message. In view of the timing it may be linked to the other problems Fantom has been posting about, anyway I'd PM'd Admins before that came up - so far no response. So given I'll leave it a while before I post again, I will tell you here through PMs what I was trying to say, and hope you have figured out how to use your Inbox.

1.Can we trust pedigrees etc on PDB:
Well if you stick around here long enough you will see the Admins repeat that the PDB is entirely voluntary and owner-based, it is NOT a formal Dog Registry. It only carries what info people want to put on, so if there are errors or they tell porkies that's on them. At least until the Admins find out and delete entries. Hell, some breeders manage to sneak false details past the PROPER registries (AKC, KC etc) sometimes ! Best always read with a little salt - again, we do not live in an ideal world where everyone is as honest as they should be.

2.Other avenues of research:
One thing any GSD (or other breed for that matter) owner really ought to do is read at least some of the many books and articles widely available on the breed and its history. They should also seek advice, get themselves a mentor &/or a good Training Club. Watch and learn. Far too many people get the dog first, then think they had one for a while so they should start breeding etc, and yet they have absorbed next to nothing in the way of information about the wider aspects of the breed. Back to front. If you have some historical knowledge, and experienced people talking generally to you about the dogs, then you get to know some of the things you should be looking at / referring to, when you get to the point where you need them. And you are far less likely to not spot when something is 'iffy' in what you are wanting to do. See last answer ! It's not foolproof, nobody can guarantee that nobody will rook you, ever - but you get a lot better prepared, you can use that 'pinch of salt', and you can learn to say No. See also next answer:

3 & 4 How buyers can protect themselves /what recourse do they have when stuff goes wrong:
When you are well-informed (about any subject) you are more likely to spot cons coming; but if you don't, the next string to your bow is to have bothered to inform yourself about how the legal system works in your own country, and in any countries you are trading with. Before paying anything. Most people don't bother to seek even basic info about how the consumer legislation works - not just about dogs but in all sorts of purchasing. Then they are scrambling around at the last minute or when it is too late to do anything; and under those circumstances they often discover there is not the redress they would like ! With the Internet it is so much easier to find these things out in today's world than it used to be, so there's not a lot of excuse. Again, if you don't like what you see about the limitations of such laws you have the opportunity not to deal with that country / those situations. But that is frequently no use to you once you have purchased something.

5.Who is responsible if a deal goes south because the seller is dishonest:
See above. Ethically, the toe-rag who has literally sold you a pup; Legally, it will depend on how good and how easy to enforce the systems you have to use are.


Look, I am really trying to be helpful. To you and to other readers. It is hard to pass up an opportunity to use your example, when your thred shows many aspects of why people should be much more cautious than they too often are. You only have to read PDB topics regularly to see how frequently people get plunged into circumstances they don't like, even when they think they are experienced dog owners, because like many other ordinary citizens they don't take advantage of information that is around if they look for it in good time.


In view of your other question on the other current dodgy breeder thred, you seem to believe that unless I am a breeder myself, I cannot know anything about anything, so my warnings don't count ?
If you have pursued your investigations into my PDB history very far, you should have realised by now that I very deliberately point out from time to time that I am NOT a breeder. This has been a conscious decision on my part, born out of love for the GSD breed. Too many are created. But it does not mean that I do not have a good deal of experience of most aspects of keeping them. You do not have to breed in your own name to be associated with a particular Kennel for 20+ years, or to be paid for over a decade to run a (2nd) Kennel to the satisfaction of its owner; or to walk and holiday-sit / board dogs from one's teens onwards, as I have, to have picked up a few 'wrinkles' abut bloodlines, legislation, made friends in all disciplines, contributed to mating decisions, supervised matings and whelpings, raised and weaned litters ...do I really need to continue ? I've been interested in this breed for over 50 years now, I think that just about qualifys me to speak / write. Certainly I have not had complaints from the National GSD Magazine I sometimes contribute to. I do care if people will not heed my advice, but I know perfectly well not all will do so, and I can do nothing about that. And that "shit happens". I just found over those years that perhaps less shit happens to me and those whose example I have listened to & followed, that to others who think they know better.

I'll leave you with a final thought on that: on TV the other evening I heard a crocodilian expert say that the best way to avoid ever being savaged by a croc was to never stand any closer than 6 feet from the edge of the water. Now I don't ask if he has ever been attacked (he seems to have all his body parts), but I do recognise someone who has spent hours and hours studying and observing; and I recognise decent advice when I hear it. Maybe sometimes other people get lucky and stand 2 feet from the edge but don't get caught; maybe occasionally an especially big croc has managed to take a victim who was standing more than 6 feet away; but on balance, I can spot the odds !

Linda.

by stormins on 25 March 2019 - 18:03

Let's start with number 2

2)  What other avenues of research do you recommend?

 

2.Other avenues of research:
One thing any GSD (or other breed for that matter) owner really ought to do is read at least some of the many books and articles widely available on the breed and its history. They should also seek advice, get themselves a mentor &/or a good Training Club. Watch and learn. Far too many people get the dog first, then think they had one for a while so they should start breeding etc, and yet they have absorbed next to nothing in the way of information about the wider aspects of the breed. Back to front. If you have some historical knowledge, and experienced people talking generally to you about the dogs, then you get to know some of the things you should be looking at / referring to, when you get to the point where you need them. And you are far less likely to not spot when something is 'iffy' in what you are wanting to do. See last answer ! It's not foolproof, nobody can guarantee that nobody will rook you, ever - but you get a lot better prepared, you can use that 'pinch of salt', and you can learn to say No. See also next answer:

 

Some good points and advice:

A local library is a great resource but the books tend to rather generic and biological in nature and many don't address the psychology of owning a GSD. Even worse many of the autthors are not GSD owners... I am sure you have heard the saying " Those that do ...DO   Those that   DON"T ... Teach   The same holds true to books and advice about breeding by those that arent breeders.  To that end I recommend the book "The Art of Raising a Puppy" by  The Monks of New Skete   to all of our new owners. These guys don't talk German Shepherds they  live with Shepherds and practice what they preach, which is why I and many others add great weight to what they say.

Local Mentors that are truly honest with you are valuable, but rare ... since most breeders are afraid that if they share their hard earned knowedge, paid for in the school of hard knocks, they will some how gain a competitor and lose a competitive advantage. I wish breeders would understand  that if we don't straighten up and fly right, and work with each other, the Animal Rights crazies will run us out of business.

Training clubs, while not a bad idea are not always, close or practical,  especially if you are not into sport.  They too can be cliqueish depending on the people involved.

Breeding is a "learn as you go" profession that puts you on a path to a destination that you will never arrive at.  It is MOST unfortuanate that many people in this industry will look back with disdain at the people who are trodding the same path whilst walking in the same footsteps you left, including your  Missteps & Mistakes. Their only failure?  They are behind you and that somehow makes you better because you have traversed beyond your earlier mistakes? Those with that attitude forget that there are those who have traversed the path before them and are light years ahead of them. They demand respect from those above them that they  fail to give to those "beneath" them.

Final thought on this point...book learning is no substitue for getting your hands dirty and putting Theory into PRACTICE which will almost certainly result in FAILURE at some point.

by stormins on 27 March 2019 - 15:03


3) If you don't research enough it's the buyers fault


4) If you dont think of every possible combination of events and protect yourself from each and every potential outcome , including those that have never occurred. it's the buyers fault

 

 

 

3 & 4 How buyers can protect themselves /what recourse do they have when stuff goes wrong:
When you are well-informed (about any subject) you are more likely to spot cons coming; but if you don't, the next string to your bow is to have bothered to inform yourself about how the legal system works in your own country, and in any countries you are trading with. Before paying anything. Most people don't bother to seek even basic info about how the consumer legislation works - not just about dogs but in all sorts of purchasing. Then they are scrambling around at the last minute or when it is too late to do anything; and under those circumstances they often discover there is not the redress they would like ! With the Internet it is so much easier to find these things out in today's world than it used to be, so there's not a lot of excuse. Again, if you don't like what you see about the limitations of such laws you have the opportunity not to deal with that country / those situations. But that is frequently no use to you once you have purchased something.

 

Circular logic, and once again a dissertation on how a buyer needs to protect themselves from the unkown,  but your response contains NO answer to the 2 questions which asked if it is the buyers fault if they do the most extensive research they have available to them and still get burned by an unsrupulous seller due to unkown and unforseen circumstances.  Please understand  that, When,  where, and how I did my research and when or how much of it I reveal publicly in response to your comments  has no bearing on the underlying integrity of a seller.

 

The inference is once again that it is the buyers fault because:

a) they arent willing or able to spend the money to hold the seller accountable in their country with their laws that they broke.

b) they are not a lawyer

c) they expected the seller to be in compliance with the most basic of laws found in all countries which require honest transparent transactions (please see the Belarus laws I posted in a previous comment which was obviously broken)

1.5. dissemination by an economic entity, in any form and by any means, of false statements and data about its own good for the purpose of concealment of its non-conformity to its intended use or requirements which it is to meet in terms of quality, consumer and other properties; 

 

 

d) at the end of the day after you make the purchase,   all of that legalize 

 is frequently no use to you once you have purchased something.

d) they should assume that the seller is automatically a crook and if they have hidden their fraudulent activities from you , it is your fault if you didnt find it and just walk away..  How would you ever be able to find out w/o 1st hand knowledge that Eva Stasi was allegedly sold by Alex to an educated professional in Canada as a DDR from his kenels and it wasn't even from his kennels, let alone a DDR??? So was that the buyers fault?   Hundmutter this  requires a  a simple yes or no answer.

 

It is almost sounding like if you don't higher a cadre of lawyers and investigators to protect yourself to pre-emptively catch a crook ... it is the buyers fault when a seller ignores the most basic of laws in their country.

When they buyer is defrauded by the seller does that make the buyer the crook because they missed the non-existent signs as in the alleged case of Eva Stasi?  Or the Seller who allegedly perpetrated the alleged fraud.

Hundmutter  in an alleged case such as this who is at fault?  This too requires a simple answer....  Buyer or Seller


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 27 March 2019 - 21:03

I'll answer your last point quickly, I will come back to the rest when I've thought about other issues you raise. Its not a simple Yes / No answer. You don't have to hire any lawyers to pre-empt things going wrong; its just infinitely preferable to have some basic knowledge of the legal system in any country you intend dealing with IN ADVANCE of committing funds to a purchase. People, in general, do not bother to do this. (Perhaps I should have mentioned I have a career history, pre managing the doggy stuff, in the advice and information industry. Years spent in both specialist (sight disorders, housing) and generalist, including consumer. So statistically I know that most people don't bother, even in their own country, let alone abroad. Often to their subsequent regret). Nobody is saying there are 100% guarantees that you won't get rooked at some point; just that you are rather less likely to if you already know: how good (by comparison to what you are used to at home) their legislation is, and how it applies (or not) to foreign buyers (ie. you). And can make that obvious in those thorough conversations you have with the seller.

Like I already said, people who bother to find this info in advance seem to come off rather better, overall. Sometimes because they just resist temptation.

But we can only achieve what laws and customs allow us to achieve. If someone in a country with which you wish to trade looks to have opportunities to get away with any & all kinds of unethical or even criminal behaviour, maybe through an historically not very 'developed' legal system, then DO NOT BUY THINGS FROM THEM / THAT COUNTRY. Why do you think trade precautions should be any less stringent for an individual buying a dog than for companies trading in hundreds of thousands of pounds/dollars worth of e.g. cars ? They have to do their 'homework'/due diligence. I tend to take a very jaundiced view of how legislation works, in most countries; it never seems to meet the needs of those with little at their disposal, even where the system works comparatively well. And particularly in regard to issues which people commonly see as being of "Right or Wrong" ethics.

Perhaps you should return to the other thread where you asked whether I was a breeder myself, and read my last post there. I set out why the OP was probably not entitled (in Law) to a refund, even though intellectually and emotionally he felt he should be. Ethically it might have been nice if the breeder concerned had relented and decided to give him at least part of his money back, and admitted she had not described the puppy well - so I was not defending her (although IMO there were some mitigating factors that a little more thought and research and a little less blind trust MIGHT have made for better circumstances, e.g. choice of another breeder in the first place !). But it is highly unlikely in the circumstances that any small claims court, anywhere, would have found in his favour, given the chain of events I laid out for him. Thus, no way to COMPEL her to act in that way. Seems to me like an example of what I'm talking about.

However, you are so busy playing the YES, BUT >>> game [ ...'the books are not available to me', 'I could not find answers to my questions that would have alerted me to possible bloodlines issues or other anomolies - on that, far as I'm aware, the Skete mob have always bred their own lines without using much wider stock and even less regularly from Eastern Europe, so they are possibly not the best source -' and 'I can't hope to get any idea about whether a country has crap consumer legislation or not'...] that you too are looking for simple - Y/N / good / bad / guilty / innocent - answers where you should still instead be asking what COULD I have done, in advance, and can I now learn from that ?

I cannot give you a simple answer confined to one dog / one breeder, because its as much about getting a wider 'feel' and knowledge of what goes on, both in a breed,  in dogs and life generally, and particularly in exposing yourself to risks in trading. And yes, of course that takes time and study. I happen to think the reduced risks seem worth it.  One of the things PDB  IS very good for (rather than being able to stop all inaccuracies in pedigrees before they are tendered - although actually I don't think the board does too badly at that, overall, either ! - is in archiving discussions and articles on a LOT of issues about things that go on in the world of dog breeding, and materials/organisations  where further & better particulars can be found - test results, progeny etc etc - but of course site searching, and reading, do take time out of anybody's "I want a dog, yesterday, and I'll worry about where it comes from later, if I have to" train of thought).

by ValK on 28 March 2019 - 00:03

stormins
you're beating this topic to death :)
there are good reason why russians haven't had friends through all their history.
even those, who at some point was forced into "friendship", did run away at first chance.
Otto von Bismarck about 130 years ago did warned to avoid any dealing/agreements with them and yet, you took the risk and now looking who is to blame?
kitkat3478

by kitkat3478 on 28 March 2019 - 22:03

I hav't read all of the posts, I have read the last couple though and what I take away as the jist of thread is how to not get screwed when buying a dog from another country when you just getting started,
Let me start by saying you don t have to go outside your own neighborhood to find unethical people. You can look under any number of rocks and find them, and they not just out there looking for you . You really need to educate 'yourself' first and foremost if you are looking for something particular in a dog. You can go to any number of these Facebook groups and the amount of false information that gets cited as fact and gets seconded as fact is unbelievable. Mind boggling to say the least. I often go in and , me being me, tell the person asking the question how lucky they were to have found the place where all the experts gather and share their expertise.
Believe it or not, this place right here is responsible for my road to knowledge in the breed. The sweat and tears of many a knowledgeable German Shepherd person has been here before me and thankfully shared their learning. I ve been duped in the past. My first German Shepherd came with a hand written pedigree (false of course) and severe HD, among other things.
Someone would have to get up pretty early in the morning to get me again.

by stormins on 29 March 2019 - 05:03

Valk

Belarus is not Russia anymore than Ukranians are Russians

Now we are going to blame unethical / illegal actions on the country of origin instead of the unethical person? Seriously??

I had a gentleman from Belarus that worked for me. A finer more honest individual you couldn't find. I'm sure he would take issue with that just the same as if I said you were a crook because of where you were born.

Common sense  would dictate that we hold the perpetrator accountable for their actions not their country or the buyer.

 

 

Hundmutter

I'll answer your last point quickly,                  Hmmm  6 paragraphs to say "a definite maybe or was it a maybe not?"

 

As a matter of fact it is a simple yes no answer .... it just seems you have difficulty stating that yes the seller is at fault when they defraud the buyer.

You have mentioned laws .... please show me a law anywhere in the world where a buyer is ever at fault in the eyes of the law because he did not anticipate, research, or predict criminal fraud on the part of the seller.

You really should read what you are writing....

Let me give you a ludicrous example to see if you are even capable of producing a yes or no answer.

I send you money for a German Shepherd you have advertised based on my research of the pedigree you uploaded to PDB..... You send me a Siamese cat. Is it the buyers fault?  Yes or no


by stormins on 29 March 2019 - 05:03

 kitkat3478 

 

Please start at the start of the thread .... read the documentation  produced by other buyers concerning this particular breeder,  who at one time was by all counts rather ethical, then give us your thoughts on what the "jist" of this thread is.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 29 March 2019 - 08:03

Kitkat, spot on as far as your first sentence goes ! The whole point of this lengthy discussion over the past 4 pages or so of it, is that I took the circumstances Stormins was reporting as an object lesson for other readers, not just the OP.

 

I am quite prepared to believe that Stormins is a bit more experienced than some people reading the thred and contemplating overseas purchases.  However, a couple of others have made points along the way, about information being available IF he'd looked for it. So it sounds as though he does not have as much background on the breed as he thinks he does. 

 

Stormins - it started out a simple answer to the question you actually posed; as I was writing, some of what I needed to add to cover other points you were raising (although I have not said anything yet about e.g. your question about 'mentoring' ) presented itself as logically belonging with my explanation.  Sorry if I am long-winded; but isn't that better than being vague / unclear / ambiguous ?   The question I was answering was "Was that the buyer's fault / who is at fault, the buyer or seller ?"

I have said several times in my posts, in various ways, that I think that Alex Soznovsky clearly was in the wrong.

Stormins seems to want this said over and again in order to agree that he has been hard done by.  My point is that when someone wrongs you and you turn out to have no redress for those wrongs, the best thing you can do is to consider carefully any ways in which you could have helped yourself, things you might have chosen to do that MAY have spared you from the experience, and use that gained knowledge to help educate others.


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