Bob Fox wants me to breed a dog with SEVERE hip dysplasia - Page 8

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by ValK on 17 December 2018 - 07:12

i'm also curious - what worth of any good traits if dog can't implement them physically?

by joanro on 17 December 2018 - 07:12

@ Rik, I did not "started wit GSD digs " from pragre " only 15 years ago". In fact, I don't have a single dog from him nor a dog n any pedigree of my dogs remotely connected to anything he ever owned nor bred nor had his hands on.

And you asked for information about hd, I posted an excellent article with excellent information and you can't be bothered to read it and get out of the rut of misinformation you are wallowing in.

I state my opinion based on my experiences. Same as you do, Rik. As for "be all end all" voice of the gsd, that would be your idol, who calls people feable minded, among other things, if they don't agree with him.

Next time you ask for information on a topic, rik, I'll make sure I tell you to do your own research. You still have not posted any proof your claims are based on. Btw, rik, hd is not exclusive to the gsd.

@ Pragre, I was the one who posted this article on your forum a year or so ago...that's where you read it before...bennefit of my research. I posted it on pdb a few years ago, also. The guy asked for information on hd, I provided the article for him ( which he declined to read)... But habitual cut and paste from wiki and goo gle to answer questions based on personal experience is what fakers do.

 

 



 


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 17 December 2018 - 09:12

Prager: you would not; I would not; lots of breeders either would not, or at least should not, because they don't have enough info. to justify risking it.
But that is not the case across the whole of the GSD-production line, is it ? Far too many people "doing their own thang" - including as well, some people who actually do know what they are doing when they take the risks along with getting what they want in other features. I don't in any case think there could ever be complete elimination while we still don't know precisely what is happening genetically. HD's ability to 'pop up' where completely unexpected ensures that. And where I'm agreeing that Joan's comment is right IS IN THE CONTEXT of an absolute 'ban' with NOBODY breeding 'risky' stock - which ain't going to happen. Ever. Just being realistic and pragmatic !
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 17 December 2018 - 10:12

ValK : WeIl it's a gamble, isn't it ? If, say, I bred two dogs who both were 'free' of HD themselves because I wanted what that pairing would possibly get me in terms of e.g. prey drive, or e.g. a better 'topline', in the resulting puppies, if I do that well - knowing the lines of ancestry I am combining - I can 'afford' the risk that I know about two or three of their siblings who had Mild HD ratings. Statistically the chances are I might get away with it, and have none of the pups grow to develop HD (or at least 'bad', incapacitating, HD). Equally, I stand a good chance statistically of most of the pups in the litter getting a decent measure of the characteristic(s) that I AM looking to produce.

The dog(s) that grow up free of HD symptoms but who have the required trait(s) - so they CAN implement those physically - are my money makers / competition contenders. Anything else in that litter which does not have enough of the right traits, or proves to have crippling HD (or epilepsy, or any other genetic condition that MIGHT have been avoided in a similar way) has long been palmed off on some other, probably 'companion dog', owner.

by joanro on 17 December 2018 - 13:12

Rik, FYI, I bought my first German working line gsd 25 years ago...he is still to this day the yardstick I use to measure all my dogs.

I raissed his brother also, trained him as a freight dog and used him moving feed and hay up the hill to the horse barn....before the gator.
26 years ago I got my first american/ gwl gsd and trained her to be an assistance transportation dog.( Pulling a Sacco, using gee/ haw commands in a freight harness and gangline)
And 17 years ago I raised a backyard bred gsd puppy, trained him in tracking/ trailing and at 18 months old, l placed him with a preacher for s&r who was active in a search and rescue group...
Before I imported any Czech gsd, I bought a pup from Mittlewest and trained and titled him in schH.

And I have only had four puppies I bought from jinopo in Czech ....three from Jipo- me kennel and one jirkova dvora pup.
So, you see Rik, I had more gsd more than a decade before I imported from jinopo, and all those previous dogs were more accomplished and usable for every day work on the farm than all these Czech dogs put together. Zero influence in my accomplishments from pragre, ever in my life, rik. 

His role was to be jinopo's broker in the USA...I told pragre which pups I wanted to buy, and he contacted jinopo and set it up.. period, rik.

Prager

by Prager on 17 December 2018 - 18:12

Joan all your dogs are based on our - Jinopo dogs . Show me any pedigree of your dogs and I show you our lines in it and our studs and z Pohranicni straze dogs. You do not even understand the relationship between me - AlpineK9 and JINOPO. If it would not be for me JINOPO would not exist and after the destruction of communism (thank God), these amazing dogs would have disappeared. I was the first one who recognized the value of these dogs in 1980 + and the first one to import them and breed them in USA. That created tremendous demand and we created a business partnership. AlpineK9 + JIPO-ME + z Jirkova dvora + some others later = JINOPO. Jinopo is not kennel Jinopo is conglomerate of breeders who breed Old Style Czech Dogs. I am the representative of JINOPO in USA and Canada. 
Oh and one more thing. Jiri sold you some of the best dogs. I have personally recommended you and alerted you to excellent dogs which you have later on bought and incorporated into your breeding program. However eventually even when I tried to convince him otherwise, Jiri refused to sell you any more dogs because even then all you could do was bitching and he grew tired of it and he also said that, and I will quote directly:, "I have at first thought, that Joan would produce good dogs, I was very proud of her when she tiled a dog, but now since she does not understand or respect or is willing to learn the concept of bloodline and thus he sees that she will eventually have sh1t." Jiri was very upset what you were doing with "his" dogs. That is actually what he said. That is what chaps your hide.
Anyway, I am sorry. I did not want to go there. But I would like to make people understand why Joan hates me and Jinopo.


susie

by susie on 17 December 2018 - 19:12

To Prager: "Tiled" = "titled" ?

So in case I interpreted this word correctly the "brain" of Jinopo is "proud" when owners title his dogs, whereas to the same time the American broker belittles "sportism"...("detrimental for the breed") ???

Besides that, any breeder should be aware that others, although they did base their breeding stock on his/her dogs, do have his/her own goals in mind. The breeder doesn't like that?
In this case the breeder should either stop selling at all, or write detailed contracts.

Both will never happen, because a "professional" breeder needs to sell (the only income).

Joanro is not very "social" against humans (sorry, Joanro) , but her believes are based on a lot of personal experience; whenever she makes a statement, it's at least worth to think about them.
On the other hand you twist words on a regular basis, you repeat the same ad nauseum, until people are just tired to answer any more, a lot of your "knowledge" is "just in time" read stuff copied out of the www (learning by talking)...annoying for everybody trying to follow a discussion...

You like "old Czech dogs" (whatever this is) ? Jinopo again and again breeds to West European working lines for almost 30 years now, Jiri himself grew up in Schutzhund. For sure "your" kind of dogs are an important part of the puzzle, but your (?) dogs, your training (?) style, your "male lines" are NOT the whole puzzle...
They are just a tiny part of the whole picture (the official breed standard).

End of rant - some of your thoughts and believes really are interesting, but the "whole package" sucks.

Peace

by joanro on 17 December 2018 - 20:12

They are not your breedings, never were and never will be. They are from jipo-me and jirkova- dvora...you are not the breeder of one single dog in any pedigree of any dog I own and have used for breeding...get that n your head...you are living as a breeder by proxy through jinopo...specifically novotny and pokorny ( sp)
You are not and never have been a partner breeder of zps dogs. You have never had anything to do with any training titling or breeding of any dogs in the pedigrees of my dogs.

When I bought my puppies from jinopo, you acted as translator/ broker for Jiri. PERIOD!

You do NOT get credit for any litter I have ever produced in the past nor future. Get your own life.

by Rik on 18 December 2018 - 00:12

I;m going to check out of this one. all further advice I can offer to anyone who does not believe HD is a genetic issue (with environmental influence) just jump in and get some.

HD/ED reached almost epidemic proportions before the SV finally took mandatory steps. and much has improved. also, in the U.S. much improved in the last 40 years because more breeders are breeding responsibly. not because they all of a sudden started lining the kiddy pools with carpet.

Rik

edit to add, "all pups are born with perfect hips" I will say all pups I have ever seen were also born with perfect tails. but somehow I have seen quite a few that were not "perfect" 3-6 months later. just saying.

by joanro on 18 December 2018 - 01:12

Rik, you are mocking the guy who started the OFA, but I guess he is not worth listening to...
Not every pup I have ever seen was born with a perfect tail. I had an Aussie born with a terrible hook on the tip of his tail that my vet had to take off.
 Boston terriers have been born with severly deformed tails...same for bull dogs. Nothing happened after they were born to cause the deformity...
But the hips of puppies.? Keep the forming bones congruent and biomachanics takes care of the rest...that is if you breed for good musculature, and tight ligaments, tight skin, and athletic agile parents to pass to the pups.

 



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