Bob Fox wants me to breed a dog with SEVERE hip dysplasia - Page 11

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by joanro on 19 December 2018 - 03:12

Rik: 1. if HD was not primarily genetic, there would be absolutely no reason for OFA. it would be a waste of money and time and totally unecessary.

My response: so you believe that it's ok to breed a bitch with hips like the one in this thread, whether or not it's heritable..besides that....you think it's ok to put a bitch through the pain of pregnancy with hips like these?

How are you going to know the status of your dog's hips, even if you don't plan to breed, but want to spend tons of time and money traing and titling without exrays?....you think it's ok to put a dog through the riggors of training with hips like those?

A police department is looking to buy a dog, not for breeding, but for work...tons of time and money to be invested..you think they would take a risk of getting a dog with hips like those?

Smart buyers of adult dogs won't waste their time on a seller who does not provide certification for hip health...no matter if the future plans are to breed or do agility with said dog.

So Rik, There are more dogs being exrayed for health checks that have nothing to do with breeding, than there are breeding dogs.....cause it sure doesn't matter that the parents have perfect hips, according to the majority on here, it's normal for many in every litter to be "born" with hd.

You actually believe there is absolutely no reason for OFA? 

Doesn'tmatter if hd is genetic or not, it still cripples a dog and intelligent people don't want to gamble if the dog they are fixing to spend tons of dollars and time on is afflicted...only exrays are definitive diagnosis for hd and a competent radiologist to read them...hence OF A thrives!!!!!!!!

by Anne5928 on 19 December 2018 - 03:12

Yes, I had three dogs for X-rays the same day for OFA, and NO! Hemi is the only dog I have from Bob. My other two dogs are not related and passed with normal scores.
Prager

by Prager on 19 December 2018 - 03:12

Barefangs the discussion turned into a discussion if HD is genetic or not because the text indicates that Bob Fox is questioning such notion. Let's hypothetically assume that HD is not genetic but environmental. There is a following of people who seem to think so as well.  In that case, Bob Fox would have a case. I think these days it would be hard to prove in the court one way or another. Even here we have had article How do Hips Become Dysplastic  by: Carol Beuchat PhD

https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/how-do-hips-become-dysplastic

Which seems to indicate that the HD is basically an environmental issue. I do not agree with it. but in a court of law, the owner of the dog would have a difficult time. On top of it breeding dysplastic dog is not illegal. We do not know what the contract says and what Bob Fox says. So, legally this is not an issue if the dog should be bred or not. For the record, I would absolutely not since I believe that HD is a genetic issue but the law is not about what is right but it is about what is legal. And what is legal is what the contract says. 

 So should this dog be bred: IMO - No!!! but I do not matter and nor are the ones who agree with me. What matter is a court of law. 

 Is the court going to be on his side? Well, it is entirely possible that yes and that depends on the contract which we have not seen. Is Bob Fox wrong to breed this dog? I think in my opinion that would absolutely be wrong. But I am not a court....  why because it is not up to the court to decide breeding practices but it is here to decide what was the original agreement. 

I am not taking any sides. I am just telling you as unbiased as I can what matters in the court of law,...which is where this thing seems to be heading and quality of hips in front of a court of law is irrelevant.  

by Anne5928 on 19 December 2018 - 04:12

The dogs hips are relevant. When one gets a dog on a breeding contract. That contract assumes a dog to be breedworthy. A high quality dog. Who would want to buy puppies from a dog with severe HD? I would have to disclose that information. This is not just his reputation, but mine. No reputable breeder would purposely do this. When you pet this dog near her hind end she snaps her head around and puts her teeth on your hands. She is in pain.
I was also mislead by a man who assured me the sire and dam had good hips when there is really no record. Just one lie after another. When I got home I realized the dog was in his sons name. I have no contract with his son. His son wasn’t there nor was anything notorized with his sons name. His sons signature was on the papers, but I didn’t see them signed. Legally, I have no contract with a person who was not the owner of the dog. Legally, I am the registered owner. The only conversation I even need to have is with Bobs son who probably knows nothing about any of this.

GSD Admin (admin)

by GSD Admin on 19 December 2018 - 06:12

lol, court? I doubt it. Unless Anne is the one suing. What matters isn't whether this is legal or not, lol, what matters most is morals.

by Rik on 19 December 2018 - 12:12

no, I do not believe any of that.

so, joan, you believe the OFA was founded for pet owners, trainers and police dogs?

here is the mission statement from the OFA.org, front page:

"Founded in 1966, our mission is to promote the health and welfare of companion animals through a reduction in the incidence of genetic disease. The OFA website and databases provide the tools, whether you are a veterinarian, breeder, or prospective owner."

it's pretty clear what the OFA mission was and is.  so, argue with them.

Rik

mrdarcy (admin)

by mrdarcy on 19 December 2018 - 12:12

Bob being one of Prager's site rouges, is it surprising what he's saying. Having that man as a member kinda speaks volumesSick

by joanro on 19 December 2018 - 12:12


Rik, what is your goal?
I don't care what you do or believe or practice or buy . Posting back and forth with you is spinning my wheels in the mud.... IOW, going absolutely nowhere.
Buhby, rik.

by apple on 19 December 2018 - 12:12

My bias in terms of dogs and the results of a breeding is that genetics play the larger role. I thought the SV's POV was that HD was 75% environmental.

by joanro on 19 December 2018 - 15:12

Apple, absolutely, genetics set the dog up for healthy hips or developmentally malformed hips.

Compare the racing grey hound, with essentially zero hd withing the breed, to the neopolitan mastiff, that has essentially one hundred percent severe HD within the breed.....look at the contrasting physical characteristics of the two breeds. ( I have posted the pictures in the past, you can do a quick look on AKC, thanks))

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