I think treat training is cruel. - Page 29

Yes it is, but it doesn't bring the same results when complex behaviors are needed. For petes sake, is that so hard to understand? Do you just want to be stuck in the past?

Not even worth it anymore...
 

Meanwhile, the dog dancing crews and service dog crews are  shaping consistant behaviors and training circles around some tough obedience/ bite guys that don’t use the tool. Fundamentals are the same for teaching anything.

You can marker train chickens, birds...any animals, including real fish (small ones -big ones) and even insects.

BE-

Right...not worth it anymore.

Here's the thing...no one is going to get pragre to agree with anything any of us post.
Hopefully, anyone who truely wants to understand what marker training is, will get some meat from our posts.

Jesse, I was going to ask pragre for videos of dogs he has trained using his method. Or just dogs he has trained, period. But don't hold your breath. There won't be any videos forthcoming by pragre of his own dogs because from what he has posted, I don't believe he has ever trained a dog to even come when called.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it. He can only post stuff out of books from the internet, and never any actual personal experience in any detail...only vague, I did marker training with s&r dogs. No details.
So I have a difficult ti believing he actually trained anything...to do anything.
He just enjoys jerking every ones' chain. Gives him a perverse plasure, it seems.
I'm done here. It's a waste of my time at this point.

that is my problem right there JJ, I see dogtrainingseminairs, where people are working with chickens, all great, but missing the point a bit these days

what ever happened to the stick the early clicker goeroes used to use,hhmmm one hand for leash, one for clicker, crap, how to hold cookies and stick now.

my point... for normal people, correct and reward will still do the job, and if you cannot get the job done without clicker, you will not get it done with clicker.

it is just another tool, not a magical thingie

 

 

No, we are not missing the point at all. WE EVOLVED! There is such a thing as evolution and you can evolve and realize that there is a better way. One can realize that they lived underneath a rock and learn to move forward. I can still hold a stick and a clicker at the same time, there are e collar remotes with built in clickers, there are stick with built in clickers, there are clickers ergonomically shaped that you can click anywhere on your body and be it with your foot.

It's not rocket science... but apparently... to some of ya'll it is. Because otherwise you'd know about these things.

Yes, Joan...I see that more and more clearly.

I will just answer Duke - because I Like many of duke’s comments usually....like his video stuff anyway.

Duke-
You don’t need a clicker to do marker training.
Some like it and do a great job....I don’t really like it, for exactly the reason you state. (But I do use it for for really fine details, because it is exacting ...to the point of amazement....see my story about my Australian Cattle dog a few posts up.

But having said that...I do most all of my clicker training off leash any way. So I have both hands free.

Then when it come time to use a leash, because of safety reasons or municiple laws, the dog ALREADY knows the behavior and has been proofed somewhat, the leash just hangs slack (except for the very occasional communication yank “hey, careful” to keep him honest ( more or less depending on dogs temperament and stage of proofing) if he goes into drive about anything inappropriately.

Normally, I use my voice to teach and shape, but in fast clicker fashion. I use a very fast “yes” in the millisecond of the behavior. I always have my voice with me...but my dogs also know the clicker and start dancing around me when I get it out...cause they have fun learning.

So, with that...I also say ‘auf Wiedersehen’, and that I hope some, if they have stuck with us this far, have, like Joan said, gotten some meat here.
 

Very interesting read. I think I’v been at it a couple of hours already!

I’m sick lol, not from reading lol, but just at home sick with a cold and had the time ~

 Being an “outsider” to this thread it’s easy for me to say that waaaaaay too freaking much has been said here and no novice or random passer by’er is going to sit and read through all this “jibber jabber”🤗 I promise! So don’t worry about any newbie misunderstanding~ 

 

Susie is wise and a clear voice of reason and well as Duke. They both say very little in comparison to the long winded repetitive posts of others, but what is said is sensible and anyone that has spent any length of time training a dog can see it as such. And there were a few other posters that added some good things as well. 

But overall this was made so much more complicated than needed! Just my two cents 😊

Great quote here..... “German Shepherd’s used to be bred for very specific traits, one of them willingness and urge to be always near the master and cooperate no matter what the task “ as I remember it ,,,

For whatever it’s worth, I think Prager gets a bad rap ~ I think he’s pretty easy to understand if you actually read what he is saying. 

And Susie’s post on page 11 was nicely written! 

All in all the thread went pretty much as it should ~ opinions, ideas, beliefs, and experiences that differ ~Welcome to forum life ! 😊

 

susie:
a dog that learned how to learn (and has success figuring out what to do ) will learn quicker and more motivated than any "old fashioned trained" dog.

susie, can you give time frame to clarify "learn quicker" and difference of "more motivated" in respect to response to clicker vs. response to vocal encouragement/prohibition?

JJ: I call out massive BS! You have not been using marker training since the 80’s!!!!!

Prager Hans: You can call massive whatever you want. I do not have to prove to you anything. However I will say that I have used marker principals of training in training of tens of S&R dogs who actually worked. I have used it also in Obedience and sport training of PSA amd SchH and in explosives detection and I still do. I have entered seminar of Balabaov and worked closely with one of his students who is my friend. I have trained dog for hearing impaired person with quite success. You know I actually train dogs for living for decades as my only way to make living. This is not my hobby. Their lives depend on my dogs I do not play with dogs I live with them.

Valk, the clicker is only a marker, not used as a command when teaching a new behavior.

Ruger, I agree, the gory details and miniscule dissection of words have beaten this topic to death.

Like I said pages ago...when the puppy finally sits on his own, give him the food in your hand. That's all marker training is...letting the animal have the opportunity to figure out what is desired of hm through his trial and error...without coersion or force. Then repeat. For any behavior.