Line breeding on Tom Vant leeffdaahof - Page 5

Troopscott,

Top half your dog's (or the litter you are contemplating) is almost identical to my dog's - only difference is my dog's sire is Dario vom Weinbergblick - half brother of Hank - was a LGA competitor but never in the BSP or WUSV. The bottom half is quite different, so could add a whole new twist as compared to your litter. I am not a breeder nor a pedigree expert, so I can only tell you what my dog is like physically and temperament wise which may or may not be what your litter will turn out to be. There are some really knowledgable folks on this forum who can help you out there. The one most here will acknowledge knows GSD pedigrees is "Gustav" - maybe he will respond (he might have already - this thread has gone so far off topic that might have missed it), or you can PM him. Not saying others are not knowledgeable - I just have first hand experience with Gustav's predictions and he nailed it on the head with my dog.

Good luck with your dog.

Cheers

apple wrote ;The difference between a sport dog and working dog can simply be what the goals of training are, not the genetic capacity of the dog.

that is 1000 % incorrect

Apple, you state a lot of incorrect things there, generally what all sport people with no LE experience say, and boy are they wrong, we had a discussion about this recently with some topsport guys, and most of them( one was second at one of last WUSV ) all where under the impression that you can take any dog from WUSV, and take it to the street

I think, when one wants advice on LE dogs or PP dogs, one SHOULDNOT talk to IPO trainer, different dogs,and different world

Same goes for ppd. Sport dog is not usually a natural.

Apple: There is nothing wrong with using fear in training, it is starting out with it that I disagree with

Hans: I say it one more time. The video is not a video of training but of testing. But in any case, I disagree that you should not start with fear. When i train a personal protection dog I let dog tell me where he is and what should i use and develop. For example, if I am sitting with my pup destined to be trained to be a protection dog, on a porch and stranger is approaching and pup alerts to the intruder and maybe growl or barks, then I will reward such behavior. This is a defense which is triggered by a negative challenge which triggeres ->fear or suspicion-> which is overcomed by courage and leading to aggression. So yes I may use such fear-based pattern in this every day life - which just to get attention - I call "Porch training".

 

Apple: "The difference between a sport dog and working dog can simply be what the goals of training are, not the genetic capacity of the dog."

Hans: That is true. But at the same time that is not my point. My point is that sport is broadly considered to be a test of genetic suitable for breeding of the dog. And as such sport does not do a  very good job.

@duke I agree with you. While I am sure some sports dogs can go without any further training to be street dogs Im at the same time maintain that such is not a result of training but it is a result of the genetics of the dog who can perform on street independent and often DESPITE of sports training and not because of it. It is frustrating that sports people truly believe that top sport dog can go on the street only by virtue of the sport training. I think such state of mind ,where sport people do not see limitations of their dogs as working dogs, is a reason why sport is so damaging to overall GSD.

some can, but generally speaking, no, many people dont know that Tom was not an easy sporty dog, and Tom,s performance showed greatness of his trainer, but sportdogs and sport training and sport breeding evolved into a seperate world, where we now have showlines, sportlines and workinglines, generally speaking, as there are still sporttrainers who want a strong dog, but the strong dogs are not the easy ones for the points, 

 

I will leave you with a recent statement of a world champion IPO trainer LOL

 

Some people say it is not possible to get a dominant, hard and confident dog to do a beautiful IPO obedience. I refused to believe it. Even it is still far away, I try to do something every day that brings me closer to my dream.

There are exceptions to every rule, and people who are entrenched in their world always use exceptions to make a point about venues that they know OF, but don’t work in regularly or even ever participated in. Prager and Duke reflect what I have seen evolve over the years in LE dogs. There really are three types in general, SL, Sport type, and working type. Doesn’t mean there isn’t crossover....but I’m not going to look for one to come consistently out of stock of the other two.

Plus, out of the thousands and thousands of LE dogs worldwide, I know what types CONSISTENTLY make the cut and which types don’t. Doesn’t mean there aren’t SL or sport dogs that can’t do it, because there ARE exceptions to evert rule as I said above...but those of us that are vendors/brokers know where and what works just like top sport and show people know where and what works in their world. The only people that really debate this are the people outside the respective worlds( sport, working, show) ....of course excepting exceptions....lol.

Duke,
You say some sport dogs can perform on the street as LE dogs, but generally no. Prager says a good working dog should be able to do sport and that is part of the reason all of Jinopo's dogs have sport titles. I wonder if titles were not required for breeding, would Jinopo title their dogs? While your two opinions are in conflict with one another, both sides taken together support my belief. Just because a dog has a sport title or a sport foundation does not mean that genetically, he is a "sporty" dog, assuming there is some common agreement of what that term means. I believe genetics override a sport foundation or a sport title. Gustav goes as far to say most GSDs are not suitable for LE. I believe he is including SL, sport lines and working lines, and if so, I would agree with that. But clearly, there are dogs with sport titles or from so called sport lines that can do LE work. Again, consider Jinopo. Are those sport dogs or working dogs? I would say it depends on the particular breeding. I would also throw in that lines that tend to produce point/podium dogs, especially in IPO are less likely to be good candidates for LE. Some believe the major difference between so called sport vs. working lines is that sport lines don't have the environmental nerves required for LE work, and that in general, that is the major difference. I would argue that top sport lines/dogs are also less balanced in drives and tend to be more prey dominant regarding the GSD. If you look at the non FCI KNPV Mal X's, they are primarily prey dogs, but also have high fight drive and are not necessarily high defense dogs. Yet KNPV trainers title their dog and try to sell,it to the police and go get another dog.  They don't try to cover up genetic short comings with training tricks.  If the dog doesn't cut it, they go on to the next dog.  That is a dog culture that has a culling process built in to it.  Often, in the GSD, some people go to great lengths to get a performance out of a dog to title it, but in the end, what you are seeing is the result of training not genetics. Plus the judging is often poor or politcal considering all the showline dogs that get titles. Gustav, I am assuming the working type you look to for potential LE dogs come from pedigrees where most, if not all of the dogs have sport titles. Is that correct? If so, it sounds like you are saying within the GSD breed, there is a subset of genetics/lines of dogs whose pedigrees have sport titles, but actually have the genetics to do LE work. And I would also assume some of those dogs did sport at a higher level and had skilled handlers and access to very good sport decoys. My point is that this issue of genetics and bloodlines and what kind of dogs result is not so cut and dry. It is not simply sport vs. work. I also think that the term sport is too general. Different sports tend to produce different types of dogs, with some sports more likely to produce dogs suitable for work and other sports producing dogs less suitable for work. I think the main issue with sport is that it has morphed into a competition rather than a way to select working stock.

FWIW, here's my experience of training several dogs to sch level and titling three of them; one blk/ red gsl, one sporty female, one working type male....the difference in the training I used for all three and the difference in the use of the decoy to achieve the goal for titling is profound.

I trained all three dogs to sch3 level, in all three phases. A big difference in the performance of all three...

The working male' s tracking was phenomial....he tracked with the intent to find whoever laid the track and bring the fight to him.

The SL male loved to track because it was interesting and fun and he was very focused and precise.

The sporty female tracked with the same enthusiasm with which she did everything in her life! Energetic, precise and with great alacrity....never missed a corner nor article inspite of her speed. The two males never missed and article, nor corner, but worked more methodically.

In the protection phase, the working male had a purpose in his work that was unmistakable to every decoy who ever worked him....if the decoy gave an opening to the dog by not work the dog as though they were working in a trial (instead of a training session)...they would be hurt! In other words, don't tap the blind, don't crack your whip as he reaches the blind, don't slap his legs with the lash of the whip.....one decoy did not follow these instructions one day while we practiced the back transport. Instead of turning and being prepared for the dog's impact, the decoy raised his whip and was in the process of cracking it when he was hit from the side, before he was able to turn completely and my dog hit him so hard he slammed the guy to the ground on his back and the two of them slid for ten feet through the grass, 90 pound dog on top...knocked the wind out of the guy( who was training director at the club and had 30+ years training and titling dogs)
This dog had FIGHT drive that was the engine behind his crushing grips and lightning speed during protection.** Control** was the aim of *every* training session...he had the motivation already built in!
This dog's obedience during protection was excellent...good outs and the recall from the blind put him into reverse. in overdrive.. ..he backed into basic without taking his eyes off the decoy..."decoy don't move or you are dog meat!" was his attitude. ( And his focus was never, ever on the sleeve, but on the decoy's face...to him the sleeve did not exist. )



The SL was all about the image of looking like a bad ass, but decoys had to be very ' fair' with him, be gentle and ' let him win'. His obedience was very good during protection.


The sporty female ...let me just say this...at our sch1 trial, the German judge asked to buy her after the trial...training directors at different clubs encouraged me  to train for regionals with her,  that I should aim for Nationals....We made high score in trial n protection at our Sch2 trial, but
Podium competition was not my cup of tea, but she has a daughter that competed in the regionals and did well, ( only the second dog trained for ipo and titled by her owner)
She has a son from a different breeding who did qualify for the Nationals. This is the first dog his owner ever trained/ handled and titled...and the first gsd he ever owned.


The biggest difference between these three dogs is what motivated them in all three phases, and the fight drive. For example: The wl male ran blinds like he was hunting to take down the man, nose in the air and running the air scent..a lot of training and ingenuity by me got him to run them " properly"( at any new location, I could send him on six blinds get to the end and then run them in reverse order, the decoy sliding into the blind unseen. I had the same control of all three of those dogs, but the way I got there was different for each of them. But the results, to the untrained eye looked the same....it was the intent and fight drive of the dogs that was different.

wishfull thinking apple,not going to adress each point anymore, but wrong,wrong and wrong