Correctness in puppies - Page 2

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by windy torres on 03 October 2018 - 01:10

I'm really grateful for your input.sharing your knowledge and giving some of your precious time to provide help means a lot to me. Thanks again .

by ValK on 03 October 2018 - 15:10

the composition and structure he or she will develop.

physical build not hard to predict looking at the parents.
temperament prediction -  more complex task but as Prager said very early testing will give pretty good hint on potential. at such young age (5-6 weeks) pup do acts and responds to an irritants not through learnt experience but through an innate base.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 03 October 2018 - 15:10

Although there is some truth in much of what other posters have offered here, you still do need to work at developing an 'experienced eye', at least early in your involvement with the breed, and you still have to bear in mind all the things that can go wrong.

For example, say you have a puppy who at six weeks showed a lot of promise in his structure and his trainability level. Suppose this is all 'in line' with what you'd expect through knowing his parents and grandparents. For instance, there isn't some huge difference in things like the topline, from generation to generation (concentrating on those things you can SEE, in conformation, since that's easier to illustrate than extent of 'drive', etc); and your pup, little as he is, seems on course to develop to at least look structurally like his ancestors. [And this is far from automatic - some litters are very even, while some sets of pups are really varied].

Anyone who has been 'in' dogs for years will tell you this: growing up (including environmental influences) can do a lot of strange, sometimes completely unexplained, things. Dogs which decide to 'come apart', in the way Nans describes, might or might not do another bit of morphing at a later stage / some months later. I have known breeders write off dogs they'd been running on at eight months or so (when lots of dogs go though a very gawky and untogether period, as 'teenagers') but then 2 years down the line, as the dog matures, find that its one they wish they had kept.


susie

by susie on 03 October 2018 - 17:10

ValK,
physical built (conformation) / temperament prediction -
there is no difference.

The pedigree will show you a tendency in both cases, but will never give you security.

You have to watch, and you have to decide (and sometimes you simply should pass although "outstanding" parents were used - genes are funny, not always working the way we want them to do).

by ValK on 03 October 2018 - 21:10

sussie
you're talking about an odds to guess possible temperament.
i'm talking about of seeing future temperament hardwired (thus unchangeable) in pup.

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 04 October 2018 - 00:10

Windy says: „with the years I've learned a bit about dog structure and behavior, but still find difficult to spot a puppy for the composition and structure he or she will develop“

Me:
A lot of good answers here.
I will second the idea that the pup‘s structure at around 6 weeks is the closest in ratio to the grown dog. Not only the stucture, but also the temperament is already surfacing. But I guess Windy was more interested in just the structure. So I’ll just write about that for now.

Things like both testicals dropping (around 7 to 10 weeks -plus/minus) and teeth, one will have to just wait and see. Nothing can predict that. Some cow-hock back leg posture as a puppy gsd can be normal and many will get better with growth, but some will not.

The topline will most likely stay similar. IMO.

To document my most recent pup, I took photos of his growth. I posted a pic here some time ago showing his growth, Here it is again.
The growth was amazingly steady over time. The topline was the same at 8 weeks (first outline ), 3 month, 5 month, 6 months, up to 8 months (last outline). I got this effect by placing him on the same rock for each photo ...and then lined up all the photos after making them transparent, by sizing the rock always in the same place. He is a White Swiss Shepherd. Their standard calls for a straight back, as in many working lines today, and as was normal prior to the extreme angulation of Showlines that started in the 70’s and 80’s.

An image

For those wondering what a WWS is (complicated story) they are white german shepherds with lines going all the way back to the first german shepherd, Horand von Grafrath. The FCI created a new breed out of them in 2011 and called them WSS. 

This dog was chosen to be a service dog, and I picked him according to his temperament at 6 weeks. He has remained amazingly consistent over the months in structure and temperament.  
At 13 months:

An image


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 04 October 2018 - 07:10

Hey, Jesse, I've got me a white one too, now ! He is not a WSS/BBS, he is 'just' an ordinary white GSD (liver nose and all !); but for all those people who have accused me over the years on here of 'hating' on whites, just because in the White Shepherds Forum I publicised the origins of the WSS and some of the chicanery that had gone into its creation, this adoption of my latest 'rescue' dog is surely an indication that I have no prejudice against the colour, except in so far as agreeing with the Breed Standard. No photos yet, I only got Dexter a few weeks ago (and I'm not 'camera-happy').

 

PS That is a lovely pic of your young dog.


Jessejones

by Jessejones on 04 October 2018 - 19:10

Hundmutter-

How great that you “rescued” a white german shepherd! I wish you and Dexter a long happy time together! How old is he? A pic would be great.

Do you notice anything different to the colored ones? I’ve had several colored gsd’s, and I don’t notice anything different really. This new dog of mine is very easy to train, and and the WSS standard calls for a “Lively and balanced temperament, enjoys action, attentive with good ability to be trained. Friendly and discreet. High social competence and devoted to his owner.” Among other stuff...which is why I decided to try a WSS for this service dog job. I got him from Germany, where the WSS  do undergo a breed survey (VDH) and don’t just do willynilly breedings. So the standard is held pretty closely.

They do get a LOT of attention from people when walking. Everyone wants to touch and pet him since they don’t look as foreboding as darker GSDs. When I had my black gsd, not many were bold enough to want to pet him LOL.
Its funny but almost every older person I meet seems to have a white shepherd story of when they were growing up and how much they loved that dog.

Sorry to go off topic a bit here!

Getting back to conformation...if you measure the angles, for example of the topline and croup, you can see how remarkable little change there is from 8 weeks to 13 mo. 

An image

An image

I did not mark the angles on the hindquarters, from hip socket to stifle to hock, but they are also remarkably similar in angulation.

So while this the first dog I have recorded in this way, it might tell us that the changes are not that huge from puppy to adult concerning structure. (Yes, I am a bit nerdy with things like this)

 

 

 

 

 


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 04 October 2018 - 20:10

Jesse, I only had Dexter six weeks so far (got him through Shepherd Welfare here in the UK, as his previous owner had to move into nursing care), so its a little early to comment on what he is like, compared to others of the breed. I have never kept a white before, all the dogs I've lived & worked with have been either Show-bred stock, or 'working'
dogs - including some rescued as adults - and have all been the normal range of colours (+ 1 liver). I did however fall in love with a white GSD when I was aged 9; he was a guard dog kept on a building site next to my school ! I have met / known several others, belonging to other people, during my 50 years in dogs. Like all dogs, all GSDs included, they have each been individuals. There is a lot of crap written about how some people think 'all' whites are 'this', or 'that'.

Dex is pretty friendly, not as 'aloof' as the breed standard / Von Stephanitz would really prefer, but not over-demonstrative, in-yer-face with everybody either. I would expect him to be approachable because his structure tells me he was bred from 'pet' lines rather than 'show' lines (or possibly 'working' lines); and where people deliberately produce whites in the UK (assuming he wasn't just a natural occurence) these are pet breeders. He attracts attention mainly because where I live just about nobody has seen a white one before ! (It's a rural, terrier & gundog fancying, area). I haven't noticed anyone being more keen to say hello to him than with previous dogs (which varied from dog to dog anyway, even though all my personal GSDs were saddled black & golds !); however I have noticed one or two humans looking a bit wary, I think maybe this is 'cos he presents quite a 'wolf-like' image, more so because he is white. He is six, btw.

Thank you for your encouragement and good wishes. I haven't taken any photos of him yet, and I have proved seriously incompetent at putting pics up on here, but I will try, eventually !


Jessejones

by Jessejones on 06 October 2018 - 17:10

Hundmutter-
You confirmed my experience....That so many people come over to me and tell me about the white GSD in their childhood that they loved. That is really interesting, because it is SOOO many people. It happens to me without fail every time I go to town with him. Many comment on having falling in love in childhood with a neighbors white dog, or grampa’s white...or the “White Shadow “TV series in the 50-60s, or the “Longstreet” blind detective with white GSD guide dog show of the 70’s, or the fitness guru of the 50s-60s Jack LaLanne and his white shepherds.

And the teenagers and twenty-thirty somethings all have fallen in love with the white wolves on Game of Thrones or the Range Rover commercial and want to pet my dog https://youtu.be/MK1-fWonQDQ ( I really dislike making a dog a fashion dog though) 

And all kids ask, wide eyed, if he is an Artic Wolf? A lighter or a snow nose only makes them look more wolflike.

Add: I also have not noticed the many stereotypes one hears of white dogs since having this one and being involved in the lives of many others lately..they are not....too sharp, too soft, too nervous, too whatever - fill in the blank....its all just not true. Just like any colored dog, there are many good ones and a few more difficult ones.

Going back to the confirmation/structure discussion and speaking of GSD pigment in general...and choosing a pup if you want the darkest nose pigment, as most pups are born with dark pigment and sometimes it just goes lighter later, maybe years later or seasonal snow-nosed lightness...

...an old breeder years ago, told me to hold the pup up to the light and look deep into the nostrils of very young (few weeks old) pups, the deeper you can look the better. The mucus membranes deep in the nostrils should be dark to black when the sun hits it. Not too much of a reddish blood glow shimmer. The lighter reddish shimmer might be a sign that the pup will develope a lighter nose or snow nose down the line at some time in his life. Maybe some one else can confirm this.

I have noticed it myself watching pups grow up. Pads can also change color from pups to adults. Jet black at birth and getting lighter over the years - not just through walking on them but a real color change to lighter pads. Could be just one toe pad or more.






 


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