Defense training on fearful dogs - Page 5

He didn't say how old the child is; but I had difficulty getting there (admittedly I'm no wiz @ sums !), so thank you Susie, you take the prize !

Does not matter the size of the bananas, cos we are only talking ONE fruit, split in half.  Mind you, don't know if making that division across or lengthwise makes any difference ?

Hee hee hee ...

Hund
What i am talking about :

Dogs are visual learners . How dogs see things visually literally and figuratively is not always the way we see things. We should always see a situation through their eyes and their reality as they process information. Especially if one is even thinking about ' defense training fearful dogs' . I stated , how dogs and children are the same way - visually oriented. Thinking about a fraction and seeing it in mathematical jargon is not the same as seeing the fraction for example in an the physical reality of a banana. Yes dogs , can be instinctive , but also they are pensive , problem solving dogs with thoughts , feelings and perceptions. They take in information via their nose ** and also visually. In a previous post I gave an example , how a dog saw the position of a hurdle at two different spots and stated to the dog that was two different situations . To a human that looks the same but to a dog , the way they process information , that was two different situations. For some dogs , as you would with a child teaching them fractions visually , we have to also present to the dog what we want it to understand ,in a manner visually . Their processing of the information that we present can have a drastic impact on them . So ... I get back to the question : what is the impact on placing a dog back tied on a table and doing defense training ?

Having made that point I go on to state : some dogs ,based on their make up , they can handle much . These dogs are not phased by using a table in any way or by applying a lot of pressure and defense . If you screw up seeing things differently as they do ,this doesn't matter because some dogs overcome your lack of seeing what they do
. Other dogs : by not seeing the world as they do , you can royally screw up  and make basket cases out of them / ruin them !. So in teaching these dogs it is prudent to realize that they are visual and we best look at situations the way they do , literally and figuratively. BTW .... Most people blurt out , they shout out commands to their dogs. They have no understanding that the dog cues off you primarily through visual cues . They have no idea that their physical cue presentation over rides their mouth. Such as when they cannot / do not  understand a child who sees the symbol  1/2 but cannot grasp the idea but when presented with two half of a banana does understand the idea/concept.  Same with dogs.. they cannot understand how , what ,when, where  , and  why ithe dog  sees things as it does.  Most often the average person teaching/training their dog , their  body language and their mouth are not congruent [ in sync ] . They don't realize the messagae the dog is given and what they are communicating. They do not understand what the dog is 'seeing' . .. So most often , these people doing table defensive training with a fearful or very very weak** dog back tied on a table , they don't understand canines , they are ignorant , they don't know shi*** from shnola . They are going to ruin the dog - for they don't even have the capacity to see the world as a child or a dog ... yet they want to teach it ... That is what I am saying .....

But I don't think you get the message across, Cent. Just suppose someone is of the sort of mindset you describe, and is reading this thred. Are they able to get your message through: long interrupted paragraphs, punctuated with sentences that have key words omitted from them ? No - so they ain't gonna learn anything / improve their view / behaviour / attitude, are they ? Just as your Vet's little girl could not visualise, on just the numeric description of what she was being asked to do. Rik tried to get this across to you; but his contribution was just as bad because it was too cryptic. I'm spelling it out : you'll only get your views through to people if you make it more accessible. Try re-reading through what you write, before you press Send. Presentation is the message.

 

Unless you just want to sound off, without actually trying to educate anyone.

I liked Rik's post -
4 true points and a littlebit of irony...
Life could be that easy.

Hund, the way you cut the banana doesn't matter...😉😀😃

Hund
I apologize for all the mistypes. I try to edit .. but sometimes the computer changes the text when I hit the keystrokes hard. I have a very very severe and bad injury . Typing is an enormous task for me. So I do the best that I can . I am lucky even to be able to try to type. So ... sorry for all the typos....
Yes my posts are very long. I attempt to share thoughts.. I give reasoning , explanation and rationale [ sometimes opinion] for statements that I make . In this way , someone has a little more info when they think about all the posts that they have read. BW , I want people to step back and 'THINK" .. Many times I have written something indisputable, objective and factual but someone offers the opposite as opinion. I don't want people to believe something , just because someone said so .
Hund , So again , sorry ... you won't have to worry about my sore eye posts

I didn’t want to post here...because there are so many knowledgeable folks posting regularly on this forum anyway, that it seems pointless...and that these discussions sometimes just go around in circles, and get hung up on small things, when basically every one here knows what they are talking about - and often even saying the same things. But it is a great source for newbies to learn a craft. One of the best places online that I have found. Especially if using the search bar to go into old posts. What a treasure trove!

But, I wrote this a few days ago,,,and will post anyway, even though it’s not saying anything new....just my 2 cents.
——— ———

Taking a FEARFUL dog and tying it up with either a tight short leash, on a table were his movement is severely limited, or even with a longer leash and using the edges of the table as a fall-off point...in order to do defensive training to increase his mojo is just plain crazy, cruel and ineffective....unless... your goal is to make the dog even more fearful and unpredictable. IMHO

A fearful dog already sees the world, or certain things in the world, as scary.
So scary, as a matter of fact, that his pattern of reaction will be either one, or a combo of, the following...to want to hide, to cower in submission, to run away or to bite it and then run away.

Putting a dog like this on a table, limiting his movement to almost zero...and goading him into defensive behavior is gasoline on the flame and will only fortify IN HIS MIND that the world is a bad place.

And many of us may have experienced being the object of a bully, or put into a life or death situation (or simply having to do math in our heads...in front of a group of people, haha) and know that our minds just quit on us. We can no longer think clearly. Happens to a dog too. No learning curve there.

Even if the trainer riles the dog up to lunge and perhaps a bite and lets the dog ‘win’, I wouldn’t believe it will give the dog the wished for confidence because the dog is tied and only has one way to react...or to ‘save itself’ through a bite.

For sure this will not stay in the dogs mind as a positive “win”, but as just another bad experience to try to avoid. You can’t make a dog tougher than he already genetically is. Just more fearful and more confused. Not saying it is bad for all dogs...but, certainly not a good idea to do with a fearful one.

In dog training more than most other endeavors...there is no “one size fits all” in training. Each dog and each circumstance must be examined anew....and always, always with a goal in mind. The goal must be thought of FIRST “what do I want to achieve”, then look at the dog’s behavior and proceed with the best choice of training from there.

In my opinion you shouldn't train a fearful dog in defense training period

Centurian  this is from your last post I hope it does not mean that you will no longer post.

 "you won't have to worry about my sore eye posts"

For those who have a problem with how you post and punctuate maybe they could be  more understanding if they would pretend that English is not your first language and  follow the TOS of the site.

It seems that most have little to no trouble following your train of thought and it would be a shame to lose your knowledge.

Injuries and age do complicate many things, I hope you can find an app where you can talk and have it type for you and your knowledge will be here for many years to come.

 

WesternR,

Hear hear 👍🏼

Vinny,
Generally I agree that fearful dogs shouldn’t be training in defense mode.

But...

Consider that training can fluctuate SEAMLESSLY from defensive to prey and again from prey to defensive. And this seamless transfer can happen several times in one session, of only a few minutes in duration. This type of training might be beneficial to some fearful dogs. So I can’t dis it totally for fearful dogs. It depends on dog and trainer (his talent), duration and situation.