Defense training on fearful dogs - Page 2

Koots, I'm sending you a PM

I want to take a moment to unscramble the commentary .

But let me also address the notion of 'table training' .'Table training ' is more than putting a dog on a table to teach it , for table training goes abstractly a little beyond that . To delineate the differences :

I say one aspect of 'table training ' is using that table as Gustav has said - as a prompt , a tool in order to teach a dog something and most often something specific. And the teaching does not necessarily equate to a dog being defensed or put into prey . Meaning that in that usage we are not trying to change the dog's internal emotional state , to change it's nervous system .[ BTW: Bite grip ... to enhance the grip , doesn't matter if the dog is on a table or on the ground .BTW , pulling on an object that a dog back tied to a tree , pulling simply makes the dog bite harder on the object ! We don't need a table to work on bite grip ! ]       THAT , is confidence boosting without a table !

The other aspect of ' table training ' is using the table as a situational construct . I say situational because in this usage the dog physically has no where to go , all options have been removed from the dog. That will affect and effect the internal and emotional state of that dog .. right down to the neuro-chemical nervous system level ! Often prey and defensive contexts are presented in the usage of the table.

So the tread addresses 1. the use in general of the table and the thread addresses the use on a specific individual dog.

If someone uses the table as I described in the second usage [ especially new helpers] as I described in the second aspect you better dam well know what the temperament of the dog is [ and be correct !] , exactly what you are trying to accomplish and if you can accomplish that with the 'table training' and how ! from what I have written , it should be evident , since we talk about the central nervous system , that you can really really ruin a dog and mess it up if you do not have correct application of 'table training' as I described secondarily. can it be a good training device as some have pointed out - absolutely .. IF .., that is the key 'IF' ....

So the dog in the original post : the dog if you have read is described as a 'fear biter'. What we all should know is that 'FEAR' is the most volatile , most sensitive , emotional state to address ! Because some fears if you handle one way you will succeed and another fear handled the same way you will intensify to such a degree that you will have made the dog literally a 'nervous wreck'. 'Flooding is one way to address fears and most often help a dog to overcome that fear. put a dog that is temperament deficient , in this case a fear biter , on a table and take every option way from that dog .. yes you may get the dog to bite , but the people who say that this 'table training' , a situational construct, is a disaster waiting to happen couldn't be more correct ! So tell me , what is it that the goal is ? A dog who is fearful , whose exhibits abnormal , exaggerated responses to environmental stimuli by an automatic response of biting , you are going to try to increase it's confidence and coping mechanism , exactly how , by removing every absolute behavioral response on a table , but to bite ? It san't flee , .. a dog that is fearful ready willing and able to bite .. how many behaviors do you give as an option to this dog ? Besides .. anyone capable knows that a dog when stressed will revert back to an autonomic innate behavioral response or to what bit has first learned in foundational learning. To be clear .. I am talking about the original dog in the thread, a fear biter. Can 'table training ' be used therapeutically for other temperament deficiencies or a normal dog - that is a different discussion . I will say briefly , yeas 'table training' as a contextual device can be used successfully - but very very few people are knowledgable and skillful enough to do so . BTW , my mentor almost prosecuted someone doing this 20 years ago for animal abuse as the person was way over the line , torturing and abusing the GS because he had no idea what he was doing !

So I wrote for the new people ... now I will try to respectfully address the well experienced people . If you have a very good dog*** , I stress again a good dog , and by that I mean the dog that has the innate ability to do what you want it to do , you mean to tell me that if you are experienced that you cannot get the dog to do what nit needs with all four paws on the ground , that you have to put the dog on a table? A contextual / situational tool I know it has it's merits , but really ? Personally I have found anything I could teach a dog on a table in that respect I could just as easily teach that dog standing on all four paws. Just saying ..

  Yogi ... something I share repectively with you , but more so elaborate on your comment for others . You are correct about the dog looking down in your post , yes !!  So I say this : As I have written ad nauseam, I teach the dog 'exactly' what I want it to learn . I want my dog on the groiund to bite and do protection  with skill and confidence. That being said , then that is 'exactly what I teach'. Why I bring this up : anyone doing a protection in sport or for rael ,,, understand that each dog has a preference and a comfort as to where it likes to bite. So with puppiers , I mean 8 week pups let a lone dogs more in age. I teach the dog to bite standing on the ground and crawling all over a person , to bite anywhere and everywhere on a person . Even if I do IPO . I teach this. I teach the dog to look at the person from all angles [ persepctives and situations too] and bite from all angles  , anywhere on the person - to completely lord it over the person.  So for me .. ? why would i want to put the dog on a table when the dog can have the utmost success on the ground . I don't teach the dog to be confident biting looking down on a person .. I teach the dog to be confident no matter how it is looking at a person .. not by learning to be confiedent when it has the high ground... because each situation for each dog is different. Some dogs . I don't want to create confidence from above the opponent  ,or put more precisely only from above either ,...But also I want them to consider : what  they should be confident about the bite when they are below , or in between someone's legs ... yes ? 

The dog was described as "nervous", not as a "fearbiter" - and out of the OPs description it's not clear if the dog was "nervous because of temperament" or if this dog only was nervous because of something absolutely new.

Defense training with a mentally nervous or unstable dog = no good idea at all.

Defense training with a stable, neutral dog will work in case handler and decoy know what they are doing, table or not.

Too bad we are not able to see the video.

Cent, I don't know much, don't understand anything you are trying to explain, and really don't think you know anything about what you are talking about.

jmo,
Rik

Point blank .... because you elevate a dog off the ground , that does not mean that you are doing table training ... " table training " is a methodology technique ' most often when a dog is put on a table and back tied and the dog is forced to interact / bite by the helper utilizing prey and defense . Many people do this with problem dogs or unsound dogs with the goal of trying to solve a dog's problem . Some use this method on sound dogs in protection work because they think they can bring more potential out in the dog . When you put a dog on a table like that and force the dog into biting by taking all of it's options away , it is unable to flee or move far to the side for it is confined, that is when the term 'table training' is used .
That is different than when I take one of my puppies off leash and collar , and place it on my kitchen counter or a table and I teach the dog/puppy sit , down and stand. In this case the table acts as a tool/ prompt to keep the dog from creeping forward. It serves as a clear boundary of the dog not to move it's paws and body forward . And the teaching of a dog positions or change in positions has nothing to do with having the pup/dog in a defense or prey mode nor is it back tied . . There is not even any bite work in teaching the dog change of positions. This is a fancy way of placing the dog in a box and doing box training except I elevate the dog so I don't have to bend and I can use my hands to help place the dog into perfect position if need be. .The table / counter top , stair well etc .. has a totally different usage  . 
So the OP used descriptive words of 'nervous' and 'fearful' .. A dog can be a bit nervous or very nervous however 'fearful ' is a very intense and different emotional state. They are very different. They are two different bio-physiological responses . A little afraid is not outright fear although it can progress to fear. The OP said this dog had it's tail tucked between it's legs. That is not signaling , ' a little nervous'. The OP stated exactly the emotional state that dog was in - fear ! So if a dog is on a table with no options to escape , and it is in a fearful states and bites .. what do you call that ? To me .. that dog bit in fear - fearfully bit.
So a GS on a table nervous and fearful**** .. how sound do you think this dog is ?
The rest of what I wrote ..if you don't understand ... then you can PM me and I will try to better explain ...

The owner stated that after two sessions the dog was fine, "wagging its tail"...
So either the owner lies or the dog learned to like the procedure pretty fast - too fast for a "fearful" dog.

"Back tied", "forced to bite", was used in the sixties, the seventies, and partially in the eighties, at least in my country, during a time the "table" wasn´t even invented. Back tied to a post or tree, short leash, the dog forced to bite, no escape possible - pretty cruel, useless, and dangerous.

The "table" was invented to shape the dog, not to force it to bite out of fear.

Without video we will never know what happened.

Back tied [ really tied from above the head ] on the table takes all the options away . Back tied to a tree does not take ALL the options away from a dog [ unless it is tied 6 inches or so , from the tree ] . Tied to the tree - the dog can run left , run right , run at oblique angles , run behind the tree , run around the tree. The dog can go through a repertoire of movements to try to flee or it can choose to advance and bite when defensed.

Yes the OP said the dog on the ground was wagging the tail : OK ... I understand what your message is.


Fora general comment . Wagging of a tail means only that the dog is stimulated. As a general comment , outside the discussion of this OP's dog. Wagging the tail does not necessarily mean or absolutely mean that a dog is all right ! Waging a tail by itself , does not tell us the emotional state or what the dog is thinking . To repeat , a wagging tail means that something is stimulating the dog. 

Guy, are you intending to respond to the question I put to you in my (28 June) PM, or not ?

Rik Sorry I did not clarify for you .
I am saying the table can have two completely different uses . Please look and understand this through a dog's eyes , not your human eyes : A dog standing on a table , tied to the table with the shortest line possible cannot turn right , turn left , step back , jump off the table , and often hardly able to take a step forward - maybe 1 or 2 if that . That is an absolute , unchangeable confining situation - I termed this specific situation a [ behavioral , only 1 behavior is possible] 'construct'. We set this up , constructed this and the dog has absolutely no influence in this situation or to change the situation , when pressure is placed on it via defense , but to bite.

This is different, especially in the eyes of the dog than a situation where a dog is placed on a table where it can move around , is not tied up and has options to several behaviors when teaching or being pressured. . The dog is free and can go right , go left , move back or jump off the table.

Point blank .. in a dog's eyes .. being on a table tied up and being on a table not tied up are two completely contextual situations. A human may think a dog on a table is a dog on a table, but dogs do not think that way and perceive that way we might do. In each situation/context ehy not only will think differently , percieve differently but will feel and act differently.

   Anothe  example of A 'construct' : My firned crates his dog at dinner. He brought his 2 years Gs to my house. We had dinner and I told him to leave the dog loose as we ate. As I anticipated the dog came to the table begging. So I said to him : put a leash on the dog . I sat down and laid the dog dwon right touching and next to my foot. I styepped on the leash . The dog could hardly lift it's head from the floor . Yhe dog tried to get up but as uou imagine could not. After 1 minute the dog realized that it had 1 and only 1 option : to lay there till ! That's it.  The dog was set up in a controlled , very well deefined , controlled context /stitaution whereby 1 and only 1 behavior was possible as all other behviors were taken away from the dog . You now the rest : the dog learns this and later after ignoring us at the talbe , that behavior away from the table gets reinforced. That becomes a learned behavior.  Rik .. you understand 'construct' as I expalined it ? 

How dogs percieve in situations/contexts and why and how constructs affect and effect our dogs :

I will illustrate : we were doing hurdle jumping with our dogs . On a rainy day we went inside with the hurdle jump to practice So we set up the hurdle . One dog would not jump it ? So obedience is obedience right ? You would correct the dog for not jumping right ? WRONG.... I went over to my friend and explained : the dog is not being disobedient. Like many reading this , the first thought is yes the dog is disobedient. No the dog was not. Because as the dog was in front of the hurdle the mental picture as he was looking at the wall influenced what the dog was thinking and feeling . I took the hurdle and moved the hurdle 4 feet out from where it was placed in relation to the room's wall . This same hurdle just moved a few feet : made a total difference in how the dog perceived the hurdle in relation to the wall . Changed the the perception , thoughts and feelings in that dog . The hurdle in one place was different in perception to that dog 4 feet away : because thew perception of the dog , even though the hurdle was far enough form the wall first placed , was different as the dog perceived the wall when the hurdle was 3 feet away !With the placement of the hurdle 4 feet back , when asked , the dog jumped the hurdle the first time . So , do you think the dog tied verses not tied creates a different perception , feeling and thought to the dog ?

Do you understand ,when we create an absolute situation , we construct a circumstance in which the dog is tied up having no behavioral options but one , that very very different to a dog that seems to be in the same situation that is not tied up and has other behavioral options. Again to contrast , this is very different than using a table , like you would a box on the ground to teach a dog change of positions exercises , sit , stand , down . The dog is not back tie and has options to behave in the situation [it can stand when asked to sit, although that is incorrect performing ].

The second point if that is what you do not understand : if you put a Nervous FEARFUL dog in a situation and pressure that dog , giving it no other option but to bite [ or shit down] when confronted and pressured you are going to make a wreck out of that dog. Inexperience people are simply going to teach that dog what when fearful : the way to solve your problem your fear , your anxiety is.... to bite ! Yes I understand the classic definition of ' fear biter '... but what will you call someone that will learn to bite when fearful ??? Having learned that becomes ready willing and able to bite when fearful ? When full of fear the answer is to bite ?

Rik , hope this is clearer for you ,and maybe others to read. And how may people here would have understood BTW what was going on in the dog's head in that hurdle story . I would guess that a good number of the experienced people reading this would have not understood that dog ! I would bet , many would have corrected that dog because they thought the dog disobeyed. Rik .. how many really know what they talk about ????? How many people understand the use of a table and how it affects and effects out dogs. 
.

That hurdle story does not make sense. working a dog weather for pp police sports when you ask a dog to do something he must you don't get a chance to move stuff. If the police say over the fence the dog must go. If is say bite the dog must bite if I say down the dog must down no matter what he thinks otherwise you only have a dog that works when it feels like it. The dog must trust that you. And that starts when the dog is a pup by doing what I say you Better your life. You have said this your self many time. Maybe not exact words.