Thoughts on this breeding - Page 2

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by jcturf311 on 19 June 2018 - 23:06

I was just wondering why these breedings dont happen more often to make more of an all around dog, i love working line gsds and wg/sl are some really good looking dogs just seems like it would be a good outcross.
susie

by susie on 20 June 2018 - 22:06

Nothing to say against a working/showline breeding...
BUT
In this case you need a showline able to work, and you need a workingline, fitting the standard; the more positive similarities, the better, otherwise you will get something of everything...

Never forget: even out of the best parents these puppies are difficult to place - neither workingline nor showline enthusiasts may be interested - most of them are too narrow minded and focussed on a single goal.

Right now I'd focus on raising and training the future sire, so he'll be able to show his qualities ( including health checks ) later on.

Just have fun.

by astrovan2487 on 21 June 2018 - 02:06

I know of a few breeders that regularly do show/working line crosses that seem to sell fairly quickly. They are definitely mainly focusing on pet homes. I've heard of some doing search and rescue, agility, and scent work.

Being around working lines I can't think of anyone that would want a show/working line to train in bite sports. It's hard enough finding a pure working line that can meet all the requirements. I'm sure the same goes for show line people with a dog that is mixed with working lines. Not saying its a bad idea at all, just seems to me like most of the breeders doing it aren't really doing it with a real goal in mind other than to sell puppies as pets.
Any kind of breeding should really be left up to those with extensive first hand knowledge of the lines they are using, especially a show/working cross. 

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 21 June 2018 - 06:06

Excellent post, Astrovan. I think it is fair to say that a majority of puppy buyers who are really interested in the breed and what they get with it, fall into the first description. These are not people who want to dedicate their whole time to training in IPO or Ring or PP or anything else involving the bitework discipline. But they are not people who just need a "sit & do nowt" 'pet' / houseguard, either. They appreciate that the GSD can do a lot of things; and they want to participate and have fun or be useful to their community, with their companion dog.

They are not looking for really highly driven dogs or 'handler hard' dogs of the type so exhalted by some people on the internet. Some drive, to be able to undertake eg SAR work, sure. I think Susie is right too, although I feel on balance her remarks might be addressed more to the US audience of puppy-buyers than they are to those elsewhere in the world, because of the 'understanding' in the States that the split between S/L and W/L is so great, no good can ever come of mixing them (or 'putting the breed back together as it was originally intended', perhaps ?). There is no reason a lot of the Show lines bred in Germany & elsewhere in Europe can't cope, & produce results, in that range of disciplines.

by Centurian on 21 June 2018 - 12:06

jcturf
The correct question is : what mating pair / or what mate will be best suited for a particular goal that I want to achieve.
Breeding is much much more than simply mating two GS ! This is not entirely about a sl X wl mating . The question that you posed on this thread shows an abundance of inexperience. And , the irony is that many people that are going to post on this topic do not have the experience that one really needs to breed .
Many people do understand basics about breeding, about genetics ,about lineages . They do have a plan for what they want and if they do have an idea do not understand what to do to bring that about .
The sl X wl cross .... and what is the purpose of that other than to create puppies , and puppies for sale . people that mate dogs for the sake of selling puppies IMOp shouldn't be breeding- that is not breeding.
Helps to even understand the evolution of the sl vs wl .
Don't misunderstand my motive: I have had15 years ago , one of the best GS one could ever want , a sl X wl cross , excellent in structure and a pistol work !. I used to advocate for more the sl X wl crosses. Back then the door was still open for successful breedings of that sort. But ... the big but is that in 15 , 20 years time , the success of these breedings to produce what the conscientious breeders aim for is almost nil . Will one get two puppies , of course. Can they be placed in pet homes , yes.. However , to breed primarily to place puppies for sale is not good breeding. I wouldn't even call that person a breeder, a call that person a peddler , who uses GS as a commodity for their personal gain only.
Breeders understand ... if you bring in a sl and a wl you are not going to gain much with your stock with current day genetics. this you do not understand because you would not even have brought up the question and ask for input. People don't understand this simple fact : you just cannot simply breed a wl GS to a sl GS and put working traits back into that show line . Once certain traits have been lost there is no putting them back , as the genetics currently are in the SL. The Sl and the Wl are at a point where we are dealing with two different 'types' of genetics. And , if you have a very well structured sl and think you have a mating and make your wl better as far as a litter of puppies are concerned , that is faulty thinking. Not to mention ... if one want to correct or improve structure two facts : there are some structure faults that cannot be corrected and there are some faults that if they can be corrected that is a matter of mating the appropriate mate over a few generations to accomplish that goal .
I repeat what I rote .. decades ago , when the sl and wl were closer , yes successful matings to improve the sl or the wl were possible . but current day ..the probability is very slim for a better GS in one aspect or the other .
In wouldn't give to much credence to what many people will write to you on this thread. Many people here , that think they understand , I tell you with certainty do not . As a matter of fact the people that you should have the opportunity to talk to .. they do not come on the PDB [ unfortunately] . They put their efforts into their very serious breeding. As a matter of fact many of my friends in USA and Germany do not even advertise their litters for sale for they breed not just to produce pups for sale . They breed to have the best sl or the best wl , they pay attention to what they produce not what solely will sell. People will give some rebuttal here, but I tell you the truth ...

by Gustav on 21 June 2018 - 14:06

๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘

by joanro on 21 June 2018 - 15:06

Great post centurian.
I have been saying for years, with personal experience in both type gsd, that at this point genetically they are two distinct breeds and should be recognised as such.
Many breeds have diverged much less than the WL gsd and gsl gsd have, and have become registered as two separate breeds.
The two gsd lines don't even resemble the same breed any longer. Heck, the malinios and some wl gsd resemble each other more than the gsl and wl gsd.

by Centurian on 21 June 2018 - 16:06

Jo ...... and that is why you have and have shown some wonderful GS on the PDB - and continue to have good GSs! ! You think about how you breed and what you have for dogs and their offspring !... That is thew difference between the Johnny come lately that thinks breeding is about two dogs simply reproducing.

Now please don't get me wrong .. as I have stated in my dog classes , we all hold the leash one day for the first time . We all stat at the same level .. but what makes someone a super pet owner , a sport enthusiast , a trainer/teacher and breeder is ... the ambition to get and the accumulate knowledge. If you want to breed , before one starts you should have gotten up off your butt side and gained the knowledge. just saying .. BTW , many people on this PDB , have just done that ... that is why they can discuss topics.. just saying. The PDB is a good site and have numerous people sharing their thoughts.. but .. this is not a place to learn all that you need to know ... especially about breeding ! you have to rub elbows with people that do breed then you will learn . You learn by doing !! At this point the OP doesn't know enough even to know what questions that are the ones to ask ....
The results , at least for me ... my litters were sold even before I had bred the dogs . That is what having good breeding stock and GS with knowledge will do for you . The dogs market themselves. look at Jo's Gs ... would anyone not want one of her dogs if they wanted a strong working dog ? Listen to Gustav , Duke , [ and more I haven't mentioned ] etc... would anyone not want a dog from them in general that is... Honest and knowledgable people with wonderful dogs for their purpose , ... they don't need to be sold*** .. they dogs sell themselves.. again - just saying.
susie

by susie on 21 June 2018 - 20:06

Sorry, Hundmutter, but even in Germany most people are not interested in a sl/wl breeding; they either want to compete in IPO or they want to compete in the show ring.
In my country people looking for an active pet (agility, obedience, SAR ) don't tend to look for a GSD. but for breeds more suitable for those tasks -
competition and effectivity...

Centurian, I am absolutely with you about "learning, knowing, making decisions later on" - no doubt about that, but your statements "you can't breed back lost genetics" (in case of working ability in showlines ) and "you can't fix some structural faults" are genetically plain wrong.
Genetically seen there is absolutely no difference between a "linebreeding free" working- or showline litter and a wl/sl cross.
Statistically seen you will get x variations of possibilities - because of that you should start with parents as similar and as good (!) as possible, no matter the lines - trying to improve one "fault" only at a time.
Working/showline doesn't matter, only quality does.
Breeding-selection-breeding.........

Because of that the OP should raise and train his/her male pup, train the female to learn more about her, most important: compete them with other dogs, and afterwards he/she may decide what to do.

Personally I am a firm believer of the "universal" GSD, fitting the standard.
In this case wl/wl, sl/sl, or wl/sl doesn't matter for me.

At the moment "we" decided we have to breed for one special goal (whatever goal this is - be it the winner of the IPO championship, the VA1 show dog, or the perfect pet dog), we started to depart and ruin the breed.
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 21 June 2018 - 21:06

Susie, so (for once) I'm glad to be an old-fashioned English person, then, as that 'split' really isn't that far advanced here; still many, many UK breeders who are breeding for the whole, your 'universal', dog ! And encouraging their buyers to look for it too. Not to say we don't have our Working specialists (Show people are a bit different, as they (honestly) KNOW a lot of their stock will go as pets - some of which may work in one form or another - rather than Showdogs); but we always did have, back when the 'work' was not IPO etc but was Ob. and Trials, with less emphasis on bitework until the highest level. And there has always been some crossover between dogs BRED primarily to be working animals, and others bred primarily to be good physical examples and shine in the Showring: with working dogs getting show prizes, or winning informal beauty competitions, and show dogs doing a day's actual work, or winning e.g. Obedience competitions. I do not really see that now a few more S/L folk are embracing working qualifications (ie coming more into line with Germany) will make much difference to that. I cannot speak of the newer breed of Working people, many of whom seem to be looking to produce PP-type breeding as well as - in some cases more than - hundsports dogs. The 'security' industry seems to be resurecting itself, despite that those changes to the cultural climate in the UK, which led to their drop-off in the first place, have not really changed. The general public don't like the laws we have being broken, whether that is about 'Guard Dogs' or 'Dangerous Dogs'. It's still rather frowned on here to have dogs that bite on command unless they are LE dogs. [Unless you are a hundsport afficianado, of course !] Most Police breeders of GSD appear not to want to lose the possibility of mixing the lines, still, despite a few Czech imports.



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