Inappropriate Agression , but is this a fear biter? - Page 17

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susie

by susie on 07 May 2018 - 18:05

You are absolutely right -
and at least in my opinion this is a trained dog ( not well trained, though ...).
Maybe "personal protection trained" and the owner paid a lot of money for this training wreck, who knows?
Whatever happened, the owner is not able to handle the result.

Off topic, Cent, but police dogs and PP dogs learn to attack neutral strangers.

by Gustav on 07 May 2018 - 20:05

Centurian, I take no offense whatsoever at your comments. I will say that I didn’t say you had to work a dog as a decoy, BUT that it is helpful along with many other things.
Of course genetics is important, after all you are talking with someone who gets requests from all over the world to read pedigrees in terms of expectations....I think I would have to have in-depth knowledge of genetics to even attempt this, much less to be constantly asked. There are many approaches to dealing with aggressive dogs, my approach is not the blueprint, only what works for me as I get paid good money to do this for people. Each of us have different experiences that may or may not allow us to be effective, I respect others, I just have limited respect for those who are talking what they read or have very little practical experiences when it comes to working with appropriate or inappropriate aggression because it’s not something you can do from reading,imo.

by Centurian on 08 May 2018 - 00:05

Gustav.. yes different ways for different people. There is more than one road to Rome . I agree You are more than absolutely correct that one cannot work with appropriate or inappropriate aggression form reading a book . I don't in a manner of speaking disrespect people that talk what they read or have little experience and put forth they understand dogs .. because .. I know that very soon they will get very very severely bitten ... I agree with you reading pedigrees can be quite helpful . You must be knowledgable as to what propensities some lines carry - I admire you for that because that is not something many people have a handle on or are capable of ! !!! . Yes that is helpful .

Susie , a police dog does not , should not , out of the clear blue attack a neutral stranger that is non threatening. So much for a reliable crowd control dog .. no wonder in the USA many officers keep their dogs in the cruiser.. Of course , In my experiences I have come across some K9s that absolutely would bite a neutral , non threatening person. Almost happened to me a few times in public at the train station . . AND IMOp when I saw these dogs , I did not feel they had ' proper mentality ' ! Point blank , I have written many times on the PDB that a good number of officers I had encountered had no idea that there dog was an ' over aggressive ' dog , faulty in temperament !

When we taught the k9 dogs, and in pursuit the fugitive /criminal stopped without a weapon in hand , froze in place , with raised hands above his head. , we did not send the dog. Why because at that point the criminal was not a threat . In pat downs , we placed the dog , went around in back of the criminal , again at this point the criminal is non threatening so therefore the dog was not to bite, not to move. The reason we place the dog in front is so that the dog had 100% view of the criminal and if he dare move , that was considered a threat to the officer and at that point the dog could attack. No dog should ever ever bite unless conditioned in scenario to automatically bite , and that has context to it , or the officer cues the dog to bite .
Personal protection ... ' to [ learn ] teach the dog to bite a non threatening man ' .. I am going to not even respond to that ..
So , in a manner your comment about ' learning dogs to attack neutral strangers ' is not all that it seems to be.. there is more in police work and PP in reference to that statement.

Jo ... Yes , [ stated emphatically as truth ] I did see those features that you pointed out. I noted them and took them into very serious consideration .. , I have had sport GSs , PP GSs , and now I have 1o GS , and I will tell you that in totality of having 1 Mal and 30 GSs in my lifetime and you just looked at them an any way , I would assure you they wouldn't even think of aggressing to you , let alone show you that kind of aggression. If you were to place your hand to their face , they wouldn't flinch nor bite you .. because they never learned what it was to be hit in their face with a hand. Having said that all my dogs were [ with hard sticks] stick hit conditioned for sport or PP .. They could discern an out stretched hand coming to them as opposed to a hand striking to do them harm.
I leave it at that .. I wrote way to much than I ever intended in this thread.

by joanro on 08 May 2018 - 01:05

Centurion, dogs I'm talking about being 'triggered' are mostly conditioned to aggress when the 'decoy' makes the moves I mentioned or attitude taken...slight hand gesture palm down fingers extended, arm ridged and ever so slowly moved towards the dog....that hand gesture is what the dog has learned is a prelude to the man making an aggressive move at the dog, dog is put into defense.
Dog is rewarded by man jerking hand away when the dog shows aggression...it escalates from there.

by Centurian on 08 May 2018 - 12:05

Jo I acknowledge what you wrote. Thank you for your comment.

Don't know if the dog was taught this or not.. But I hate to think what this dog would do in real life without a muzzle with such a trigger you describe.
Personally , I have never trained that way , never ever taught that . Personally I think that is a stupid thing to teach ..that is my subjective , biased opinion , which no one really cares about. If I saw some one teach that ..my feeling would be .. to hit that person on the side of the head to knock some sense into him. After all, this small hand gesture you describe is more of something that you would see in in an act of stealing during a ' guarding an object' exercise. To put a dog into defense by just a small hand gesture as you describe , especially in that situation in the video , hmmmm .... and what if a child ever did that to this dog to say hello ??

by duke1965 on 08 May 2018 - 13:05

centurian, maybe let go of the pet dog thinking, what if someone pulls a knife or a gun on a cop, you want your dog to stand there and ask the criminal to whip twice before pulling te weapon?


by ValK on 08 May 2018 - 15:05

there are big difference - dog attack an innocent target by dog's own initiative and the dog attack an innocent target on handler's command.


by Centurian on 08 May 2018 - 15:05

Duke you bring up a good point . But you misrepresent my message...

A man standing and a man standing either with a weapon or pulling a weapon are different contexts ! A dog should have the ability to discern and recognize this , should and does have a different picture of this and the behavior should be according to that context. If the dog does not .. what many people do not or fail to , understand this is that this for a GS is faulty mentality .

In all the PP dogs I trained never mind police dog training : the act of pulling any weapon ,and I mean nay weapon , even a scrima stick , is in and of itself a threat . Not an implied threat , a threat. That is why if anyone ever pulls a gun on me , without thought or hesitation I will act upon that . Having a weapon in hand or the act of pulling a weapon out , has with it the intention of using that weapon . Such is the case of a well trained Gs , the act of pulling a weapon or placing it in the sight of another person gives the right to the dog to apprehend without any other verbal cue . One time during hunting season , my GS was walking in the woodland part of my property with me . A hunter came into sight with his rifle , my GS immediately went to the end of his leash with intention of encountering this man. First he was on private property and second he was trying to disarm the dun . I yelled to him freeze can't you see this dog was ready to take you out. He said , well I am only disarming . I replied I know that but he doesn't !! If you train as you should , you teach your dog this , sight of gun , respond .

So there is a big difference of a man being non threatening and a man that that is. Duke ... in my life believe me I have has some very very serious dogs that would make a man piss his pants. And one time a man came toward me , and he almost did as my dog went for him . At the last minute he dropped what he had and at that last moment I called off the dog , who just about got his belt with his tooth as he come down from the call off . He went into an automatic guard until I got there and released him . So Duke , please don't get the idea that I have had only poodles for a shepherds .

What I don't let go of is : The GS dog should have the correct mindset and mentality and with that goes the correct appropriate Temperament that elicits correct Healthy Aggression . I cannot tell you how many times I see GS , Mals other breeds without healthy aggression. As I wrote many times , even some police , they do not 100% of the time have good police dogs with healthy aggression .

Duke try to understand .. I spent my whole life , a whole lifetime understanding the things that I write and I have been fortunate to have the opportunity to have been taught by the most educated canine people in the entire world on both sides. I cannot put into words what they have shown me , but only in part by awkward words, what they have taught me can I relate my experience.

I don't come to the PDB for ego , I have enough trophies and I made my grade in life in several different endeavors. I come to PDB to share thoughts that is my only motive.. Aggression is one of the most difficult traits for people, especially novices , in the dog world to grasp. I have come across many Professionals that after 30 years with canines still , not understanding aggression or the GS dog. I don't ask anyone to agree ..

Before I go .... I wrote that I acknowledge Jo's comment . But for those interested 30 years ago when I went through my canine education , my mentor emphatically preached : Never hit a dog with your hand and whatever you ever do with hands ... remember , the hands should be a conveyance of love and respect to the dog. To be in the act of striking by a hand or a weapon is different. But the hands themselves ... He said if you teach the hand itself is a threat not the act of hitting , someday you are going to see a child bitten badly, very badly by that dog !.. Just echoing his words.. do what you will [ BTW he taught the FBI , CIA , Royal Canadian Mounties , and sometimes some of the Germans , was asked to be USA's NSA Administrator for every Gov't Dog handler team in USA in his time , I think he taught me a little bit ].

susie

by susie on 08 May 2018 - 18:05

Cent, it's not about what you like but about what happens in the "real" world - be it good or bad.
Dogs DO learn to attack passive people, Duke even showed a video on page 14, it's part of any police program I know.
You don't need to like it, but it's a fact.

Once again, I strongly believe we do see a "trained" dog in this video, and the owner is not able to deal with the result.

Fearbiter? I don't think so - like Duke I think this dog got away with his bluffs from the get go, he always "won".
Growling- won
Biting- won
Trained for success

This dog shows good obedience ( moving into the heal position / structured obedience / used to the muzzle ) - I guess professionally trained by someone out of IPO, now "selling" his knowledge and dogs to people who want to own a "PP dog" - a big and very rich market...
The real problem are the new owners, who may have the money, but not the knowledge...


by joanro on 08 May 2018 - 18:05

I don't want my dogs being 'tricked into allowing a scumbag to gingerly advance his hand til he gets hold of my dog and incapacitate my dog. If someone gets close enough to my dog without my permission, then my dog is not doing it's job properly....my dog should prevent any stranger from getting close enough to get a hand on him.
Hands are not always conveyors of love and respect, but are potentially deadly weapons in the 'wrong hands' lol( see what I did there?)
Fact is, a my dog can't protect me if he can be easily fooled to believe a stranger's hands are 'love and respect'.
I don't worry about kids around my dogs...I worry about scumbags intruding my space.






 


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