Ae German Shepherds self aware ? - Page 6

Actually, if one thinks about it, we are so similar to dogs and other animals that it defies logic to think that dogs and other animals are not self aware.

Dogs and humans (and most all mammals) have the same equipment:
Blood
Eyelashes
Similar brain structure (size and folds might differer)
Nerves
Veins
Cell structure
Hormones
Eyeballs
5 fingers and toes (or rudimentary bone structure with the same)
Fingernail/claws
Teeth made with same enamel
Bones
Bone mark
Fetal development
Mitochondria
Lungs
Use of oxygen
Noses with two nostrils
Skin/skin cells
Ears
Sex glands
And I could go on forever....

We have the same instincts, more or less, only we can control ours more through rationalization.

So why in the world would they not have self awareness or emotions? Does one not include the other?

I saw this ted talk and wanted to share as it is awesomely well done and I think most everyone would agree:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-wkdH_wluhw

And many probably know that mri testing is starting to be done in dogs to understand their emotions as the brain areas lighting up can be followed:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Y-GU3JqiQ

I have one more crazy theory of mine that I may share later too..

Bee, a tiger in captivity has nothing to teach her young; no prey animals to teach her young how to hunt and stalk, and to teach them the skill of killing an animal to eat without themselves being injured or killed...and how to eat the freshly killed animal, and to stash the leftovers for later consumption. No opportunity to teach them to approach a watering hole without being eaten by a croc...and other survival skills.

That is all part of mothering that is absent in a captive invironment like a zoo. There is so much more to being
alive than just breathing eating prekilled and plucked chickens, shitting and sleeping.

The point is about those mammals needing a parent role model to be the best nurturers and it just happens that a zoo or an Aquarium is where this is noticed.

Interestingly enough the dog breeders here often comment on benefits for pups who are reared by good mothers. And then there are those bitches who will devour their offspring. It is always recommended those stressed moms who display that tendency are encouraged to be spayed.

Some very fascinating stories , points of view and thoughts shared on this thread ... So I put forth this thought to ponder over "

De Cartes [ regarding mankind ] stated : " I think , therefore I am " . Then another man came along and said : I think, therefore I am ... However , I know that I am thinking and because of that now I know ,   that I am .

So , back to the original question . ' Are dogs self aware ? ' . Hmmmm , GS are quite the problem solvers and out of all the canines breeds , I think most or anyone that owned a GS would without argument state they, as a breed  are ,  if not the most intelligent breed , at least one of the most highly intelligent breeds of canines ! They do think , that is proven so . They can deductively think [ not inductively think ]. So .... I contemplate myself even in a GS mind , does my GS also think , meaning it understands , and feels , as I would : " I think therefore I know that I am ....... Just saying ???

 BTW , brain MRI studies with canines are quite interesting as one poster ponted out** 

A little philosophical twist to the question ... But ,when I talk to people I say teaching is about ATTITUDE [ mine and my dogs ]. If you believe your GS is self aware .. what is our attitude toward them and how should we best go about teach them .. ? Or for some of people , if a dog is or isn't self aware does it even matter or make a difference ....

I wanted to hyperlink to the videos I recommended in the last post, which I forgot to do. In the hope that more will watch it if the direct link makes it easier

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-wkdH_wluhw

And, in case of MRI imaging of dogs brains while awake and if interested in how the dogs were trained to lay still for over 8 minutes, without moving but yet unrestrained, in a 80/90 decibel loud tube...this is interesting too. Also a university in Budapest has done this as well, which one can google the results of:

https://youtu.be/B0Y-GU3JqiQ

I brought up the 'feeling sorry for itself' point on page 5 to introduce the following thought:

If one feels sorry for oneself then it would mean that one is self-aware. But if one does not feel sorry for oneself, then it does not necessarily mean that one is not self-aware. If one of you has a story of a dog feeling sorry for itself then I would say that dog is self-aware, but it would be difficult to say the dog is feeling that way, rather than the person being anthropomorphic.

Koots-
That’s right..if one can prove the dog is feeling sorry for himself, that would be a type of proof that he is self aware.
But if he does not feel sorry for himself, it does not prove that he is not self aware. Very true

I tried to add my 2 cents to that one a few posts back, but did not go into great detail.

My thinking...this may get a bit too esoteric for some tastes...

I’m talking about a deformity that is not acutely painful, that just IS:
A dog doesn’t feel sorry for himself.
Nor do I think a dog is aware of his own mortality.
As far as we know, only we humans have that dubious and potentially soul destroying pleasure. Maybe larger brained species like whales, elephants, octopus, and dolphins have a sense of mortality? But doubtful that dogs do, lucky dogs.

Dogs live in the moment and don’t judge circumstancial things as „good or bad“ like a human does.
He reacts to the moment...if a good or bad thing is happening to him in the moment, and according to his conditioning, but that is a diffent thing to be discussed separately
Because a dog lives 100% in the moment, in the NOW, not future and not the past....and importantly, does not compare himself to others, he will not ever think negatively.
This is why we love dogs.
They take us out of our mental prison of past/present good/bad ruminations like worrying about ‘stuff’...and force us to live in the eternal NOW.

An unaware human judges everything as good or bad, regardless of whether it really is or not, because we are mental ruminators. And we humans constantly compare ourselves to others, whether consciously or not.

Usually a human will judge a deformity as bad, because it hinders him from accomplishment that may be easy for someone else. Because a human can see the cause and effect, and he can think about how it was in the past (if before deformity) and can look into future to imagine how hard things can remain or increase.
Often this makes us feel sorry for ourselves unless we consciously work at changing our mindset. But a human rarely thinks only in the NOW. Right NOW, in this instant,is my deformity hurting me or not is the question. Future and past don’t exist.

Or, if a deformity that makes one feel „unattractive” then fear of not being accepted or not being “good enough” plays a role because our human egos are very strong and lead to anxious thoughts ...as no human ego wants to die or feel diminished.
Even if the death of the ego frees the mind.
 

A dog has no ego and will not compare himself to other dogs or feel “less”. He just “is”.

Not esoteric at all... 😁

Thanks Koots for clarifying your point, that also, self awareness isn’t confined to understanding the internal state of being that we understand as feeling sorry for oneself.

And yes Susie, the concept isn’t that only a few can understand it, but rather it can be easily misunderstood with individual parameters of definition.

The real difficulty is in where to draw the line in our understanding of an animal mind without an animal self defined vocabulary. We are often only guessing, educated or not. 🧐

The assertion that a dog lives in the present 100% sounds true, but of course we actually can’t know that for certain.

And to follow through with the OP”s question, being self aware also means having an awareness of one’s internal dialogue. Does a dog have that, or any other creature besides ourselves? That is where those brain scans might come in handy to attempt to provide an answer.