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Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 18 March 2018 - 09:03

Great ! Timing while training is one of the greatest helps to good results.
Can I tell Sunny what your SD contact said about the strain of spinning, and curling up ?

by junkmail2014nov on 18 March 2018 - 10:03

Hey there @Hundmutter! Please do. I welcome and wish for any and all advice, information, research, and opinions. As the Hebrews proverbs says: “With many counselors a war is won.” Right now, however, she does not appear to show any issues. In fact it is even now much harder to keep her in check. The PT Vet and the Vet she has been transfered to up here both say that keeping her crated now is actually not  in her best interest. What she needs now is "controlled movement and exercise." Yeah. Right. Anyone ever try to "control" the "exercise" of a 6 month old GSD? Its like chasing a freaking two year old! I still notice, - ever so slightly - a barely imperceptible, slight give on her left hind leg when she becomes somewhat fatigued. Almost as if its "giving way" a bit. Had I not ever had 5 knee surgeries myself when I was in my 20's I'd never have recognized the behavior. So I'm very careful with her to try and keep her from getting "worn out" and I crate her right before this if I can catch it in time. Its very difficult to predict as I do not know what or when to expect it or predict it. Her healing is in spurts now as she grows so its hard. AAAAAAAAAANNNNND we still have to be on Trazadone 150 to 200 mg per day depending on HER hormonal levels now as we approach the juvenile stage but its a labor of love for me. And OMG she is so stinking cute and so freaking smart! I swear the little $h1+ can read my mind sometimes!


Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 18 March 2018 - 13:03

I swear the little $h1+ can read my mind sometimes!

Ohhh yeah, you'd swear sometimes they can! Welcome to the world of the GSD! :D

Can't count the number of times my dog has broken her stay just as I am about to give the 'hier' command. She MUST be reading some almost imperceptible cue in my body language that tips her off I'm going to do the recall. I have to make every effort I can not to move a muscle before giving the command!
susie

by susie on 18 March 2018 - 14:03

Think different, Sun 😀
Move around, stay still, move around again, and on and on.
And don't always call her, pick her up most of the times, so she never knows what happens...

Forgot: Dogs are masters in anticipating-don't give her the chance.

Although the IPO trial does have a firm pattern, you should not train this pattern, but keep her curious and attentive all the time.

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 18 March 2018 - 18:03

Beautiful girl.
I am partial to black faces since my boy, the love of my life that I spent a great 12.5 years with, had a darkest brown/black face and those expressive eyes. Not a day goes by without painfully missing him.
A few thoughts here...and I’m not a sd trainer but do know dogs fairly well:
About carrying a doctors letter for a sd...
The reason I would carry a doc letter with me calling for my medical need of a sd, is solely because of all the abuse and fraud in using a service dog or emotional support dog in the USA in the last few years.
It has become so bad over here, that people are flying on airlines with all kinds of dogs, calling them service dogs so they don’t have to fly in cargo, and get to fly for free and even get a seat. Chickens, peacocks, snakes...whatever...are being flown in cabin and people are calling them their service animal in the sense of an emotional support animal. Because there is no regulation over here in the US, many see this as a loophole to transport the animal in the cabin or to take them into a grocery stores etc.
I love all dogs, but even I’m starting to get miffed when I see a dog, mostly small ones, in a grocery cart, or ...as one that I saw peeing against a food isle stand while the owner was looking at products in another shelf... because some owners just don’t want to be without their little “baby”.
It is so bad that as of this year airlines are cracking down on it, and WILL ask in some cases, for a doc letter. (Yes, one can falsify a doc letter too, so its not perfect either). Apparently an airline can deny access without the letter or if you dog is acting up.
I personally don’t see carrying a letter as a harassment of people in real need of a service dog. The letter by law, does not have to state your medical issue. I personally, would gladly show a letter to an airline, or any store manager, showing that I’m not a faker.
I have thought a lot about this, because I have a diagnosed condition that will cause a deterioration of my motor skills over time and may need a sd in the future. So far, I’m still limping along not too badly, but my new pup is already being raised differently than my previous pup, who I raised very active and to be incredibly high drive sport dog.
About petting a SD:
Again, we all have our experiences, but personally, I would not let people pet my dog or sd.
It is my job to protect my dog from being pet by strangers.
Socializing in my book does not mean letting everybody that wants to just go ahead touch my dog or puppy do it, to get the dog used to it. To me means getting my dog used to seeing and hearing everything that is in the world and to ignore it by being neutral. And this includes me being neutral. A young pup, up to about 4 months, can still be pet by strangers if they ask, but after that, I only let my people do any touching.
A German shepherd by nature is usually not like a lab/retriever that loves the whole world and every one in it and lives to meet other people and loves to be petted. A dog might start either liking being touch by strangers and start to pull towards any one passing (a real drag) or, and this is the case with most shepherds that I know, will start to dislike being pet by strangers and it stresses them. A sd needs to be neutral an should not have to worry about if the person over there will want to touch him. GSs are sensitive by nature, and often suspicous and cautious as adults(I dont mean negatively, but in a smart way).
A sd is a Working Dog. He has a job to do...so we have to help him stay focused as best as we can.
I would think that all touching should be done during training and at first in a controlled environment, so that the pup gets used to being touched by strangers. Thing like being hit by bags, stumbling over them, running a bicycle wheel or shopping cart (gently) into them, stepping on paws by accident, all things that can come up...probably all needs to be trained so the dog will not be startled in real life.
The hardest part about having a GS as a sd to me...is how to get him used to being touched by children. Because I don’t let ANY kids close to my dogs, ever, but yet as a sd handler, you will have to do that. Perhaps that is why labs/retrievers have become popular for this kind of work. They are generally more laid-back.
Lastly, I think I would get a harness with a “SD -don’t pet” velcro patch on the sides, just to be clear.
But that is perhaps just me. I am not super social myself with strangers, and don’t really like small talk of people wanting to pet my dog. I just want to get on with my business.
Ironically, I now have a very striking long coated white shepherd (BBS) pup that almost all strangers we pass ooohhh and aww over and want to pet and talk about, so in that area I have my work cut out for me. While the white ones are still German Shepherds (without the word German, but same stock and ancestors...long story for those readers that don’t know the history...) the white ones look less threating, and people and kids REALLY want to cuddle him and play with his ears all the time!

 

by JonRob on 18 March 2018 - 19:03

"personally, I would not let people pet my dog or sd."

Guess what? They will anyway and there is nothing you can do to totally prevent this. Kids will suddenly come shrieking up and grab the dog. Adults will start petting him when you're not looking, and never mind the "don't pet" sign on the harness. Then what? Freak out so the dog freaks out too? Not a good idea.

You obviously have not used a service dog before or you would be well aware of this.

That is why it is so important to totally socialize a potential service dog to be accepting of petting by strangers when the dog is being trained. Once he is totally trained, you can discourage petting by strangers. By that time, the dog should be well focused on you, but he will not flip out if a stranger suddenly grabs him.

"this is the case with most shepherds that I know, will start to dislike being pet by strangers and it stresses them "

A dog with such poor nerve that he stresses over such a trivial thing is totally unsuitable for service dog work.

"A dog might start either liking being touch by strangers and start to pull towards any one passing (a real drag)"

If a dog consistently shows as he matures that he takes great joy in making new friends, then he needs a job as a therapy dog, not a service dog. No dog should be required to do work that he does not enjoy.

As for the fakers, I hope this thread doesn't get hijacked on this issue when has been covered in other threads. But it's important to know that emotional support animals are NOT service animals and are NOT covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act. You can ask for a doctor's note to justify an emotional support animal but it is unlawful to demand one to justify a service dog. I'm not a fan of encouraging people to do illegal things.

Unfortunately, there is a law that covers airlines and requires them to accept emotional support animals. This should be changed so airlines don't have to do this. So much of the fakery involves fake emotional support animals, not fake service dogs, but most people don't know the difference, and it's giving service dogs a bad name. And being nervous about flying isn't in the same class as having a disability.

My experience has been that antisocial people do not do well with service dogs. The dog picks up on the owner's hostility, someone gets bit, the service dog owner gets sued (yes, you are legally liable for your service dog's actions and you should be), and service dogs get a bad rap.


Jessejones

by Jessejones on 18 March 2018 - 19:03

JonRob,
I wrote the dog needs to be trained to deal with people. Did you read my post all the way? Of course you cant help people petting behind you back. But you can do all you can to alleviate the issue.
One does not have to write about “extreme behavior” like freaking out. Let’s stay cool here.
A GS used for a sd that does not like to be petted, will not necessarily freak out and have bad nerves. It is enough to see the dog lick his nose, or give side glances, or pin his ears back just an imperceptible notch. Yes, I read my dogs carefully. A full freak out is not necessary to diagnose a dog being uncomfortable nor does it mean he has weak nerves.
Most dogs are not suitable for sd work. Which is why it is risky getting a puppy and not an adult. So don’t come to me with that arugument. The op has a puppy.
Don’t bash people either for bringing up real issues and real problems in the USA with sd and emotional support dogs. We are all adults here and know what is at stake. Many do not know the difference between sd and esd. Google and you will read about airlines clamping down on this. It is not only fake esd, but also fake sd since no proof need be furnished yet.
No, I have not had a sd (yet, but my new dog is being trained in that direction because my health, I may need him as a sd in the future) but I have lived with my other gs in Europe and the USA, and in Europe for years, I took my dog EVERYWHERE, except a grocery store. That includes going to restaurants and sitting for hours in noisy atmospheres, big department stores, busy pedestrian shopping areas, construction sites and heavy traffic throughfares and airports. I know what it means to travel with, and go everywhere with a large dog. I know how people react to them. So please reign in your tone and lets be more civil.


by JonRob on 18 March 2018 - 20:03

"A GS used for a sd that does not like to be petted, will not necessarily freak out and have bad nerves. It is enough to see the dog lick his nose, or give side glances, or pin his ears back just an imperceptible notch."

I would immediately disqualify such a dog for service dog training. Service dogs need to be totally bomb proof.

No, I am not tolerant of speculations about service dogs from people who have no experience with them and think it's the same as taking a non-service dog out in public in Europe. There's way too much at stake here. Disabled people with service dogs live in the real world and have a bad enough time dealing with their disabilities. Then they have to deal with all kinds of sh*t because of their service dogs.

Nor am I going to waste my time taking your bait and arguing with you. I have dogs to train. You are welcome to post whatever speculations you like here, but I hope the OP has the sense to talk to some disabled folks who have used service dogs for many years and can tell her what it's really like. I wish her and her dog all the best.
Jessejones

by Jessejones on 18 March 2018 - 20:03

JonRob,

Me baiting you? Whoa, who started this.
The op has a PUPPY, and is concerned if it can do the work. So according to you, if it licks its nose when being petted, or tilts the ears a notch, it is not qualified. Ok, I’m sure that will help the op.
I don’t know your personal story or why this aggressiveness comes through.
No, I don’t use my pup as a sd yet.
But, as a person with a degenerative motor-nerve disease that will get progressively, and perhaps even quickly bad...and being an osteopath for the last 30 years, yes, I KNOW that some people have a very hard time.
But this is not the issue here. The issue is that in the US, there is not ENOUGH, happening for real sd owners, and TOO many trying to beat the system with bogus sd and etd.
Why get mad at the truth. The truth has to be called out first...then let’s work to fix it.
And that is all I have to say about this.
 

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 19 March 2018 - 06:03

Actually, lads, while there very well may be an increasing issue about misuse and misdescription of Service or Emotional Support dogs/ other animals, and yes it should be looked into, you are both wrong 'cos that is not the issue on this thred.

If you want to debate whether an ear flick or nose lick IS a true indicator of anything, start a new thred.

Can we stay on topic ?  OP's pup is recovering from surgery.  OP is convinced, and her SD Training contacts are not disagreeing, that the pup has an excellent temperament for the role.

The concern is about whether she is going to 'mend' well enough, and be strong and flexible enough, to deal with all life throws at her if she is worked, and lives as more than a pet.  Some SD opinion is that the potential service dog does have to be AS FIT AS  a sport dog; not because it will have to leap at someone in bitework, but because it has to keep walking on a, perhaps long, working day with its owner; (perhaps we should have said "As fit as a herding dog"!) - it has to be able to curl up tightly out of the way, and stay like that for perhaps quite long periods, while its owner is travelling on a bus or a plane, but then spring up without difficulty and resume walking again; in short, it needs joints that work.  As a Hearing Dog, she might not do much running about except to run into rooms to alert on doorbells and telephones, but OTOH if the deaf owner is fully employed, she may need to be just as 'up for it' as the next Seeing Eye or Mobility dog.

Problem at this moment is do the Vets know more than the SD people, or do the SD people know more than the Vets, about the dog's recovery potential ?

 



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