Shutzhund Requirement? - Page 5

What is breeding properly and responsibly? I bred for many years and I’m curious if I bred properly and responsibly. Btw, I know there are many good breeders in the United States, ....are Czech/Slovakian/Scandinavian breeders proper and responsible although they are outside the SV? Not trying to be contentious, but I’m interpreting the SV model as being responsible and proper only.....understanding that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but there is reason I stopped importing from Germany 25 years ago, and it could be that I don’t know what responsible and proper breeding is.

Gustav..... A poignant comment ... Your comment is short but the but has a lot of magnitude in substance .
You are not alone .... and this is the BIGGEST gripe that I have : People and I refer to not only Germany , but many organizations and people in the USA and many other countries, THINK the SV model is not only proper and responsible , but that it is gospel ! I was not going to write about the SV in reference to some of the last posts. I wrote before that it is one corrupt organization and I don't write that as bashing for anyone in the lop can conclude that if they have an understanding though the decades what the SV has done or even more so has failed to do !
Breeding responsible and proper : IMOp- that is selectively mating a male and female that can and will , maintain and contribute to their offspring those phenotypic and genotypic genetic traits that define the breed , as the bred was created , structurally and behaviorally in order to function as the breed was and is expected to function.

That is not a precise definition but my notion. And if that is not enough .. then ponder this : The SV through the years has not demanded or truly enforced this . They have not regulated the GS breeding based on this premise .They give the outward APPEARANCE that they do , but they did not and they do not. I can several examples how they did not due what they claim or should have done... Nor did the USA preserve the GS, in crating their American Line GS either !! As a matter of fact , a number of countries currently are very dissatisfied with the SV . Just contact the Swedish GS Club and see what they have to say about following the SV program and rules ... I often wondered , although I always went to my own drum beat , why in the world [ no pun intended] think they have to follow the SV ? An organization , that is so full of hypocrisy , so corrupted .. and the people decide to do this or that just because the SV says to ? People haven't heard this term , those from Germany , you should know this term : the Friday Night Title . So much for titling the dog and that Sch 1 Title automatically makes the dog breed worthy. BTW , IPO .. call it what you want , it still is Schutzhund [ when I heard that you don't say in IPO "Fass" anymore as a command , they want you in the USA to say to the dog 'Go' , what a joke , a big joke!] BTW , there are breeders in a number of countries that breed fantastic GS . I met a renowned French Ring Judge who breeds super GS , had a friend that bred super Czech GS -

So Gustav.. maybe now many that read your comment understand a little better why you import going back 25 years and [ I don't know you ] but maybe you are a hell of a lot more proper and responsible in your breeding compared to much of what we see the SV has done or has failed to do. Also their are some great trainers in USA and Germany and some very very bad trainers.. in both countries there are some outstanding breeders and also some very very poor breeders.. just like any and all other countries. Don't think because something has USA or SV stamp you got something special all the time.

What is you has two great police dogs without schH titles who had good hips and elbows and their pedigrees complimented each other well. For me, that would be a higher standard of breeding than a schH title. Then there is the argument about all the European showline dogs who are titled but really lack working ability. Also, point dogs often are not the best working dogs.

proper breeders?
ones, who succeed in achieving final result in accordance with their plans in regards of established own breeding program.
does it means - responsible? absolutely no.
experimentations with creation unfunctional and inefficient but "beautiful" or "sporting" GS dogs, known today as show dogs and IPO competitors is pretty good exemple of irresponsibility in approach to development of the working breed. albeit it was successes, thus, technically speaking, proper selection and matching was used.

in regards of right and wrong doing SV vs. national breed clubs, i wasn't around when it started. but from what i learned so far, SV was first, who allowed mentioned above experiments with GS breed. national clubs did follow behind and just added their touch, in accordance to their domestic perception of excellence.

second part of historical fatherland of breed, DDR, did stuck to principles of breed development in direction, opposite to SV. ones may like or not their achievements but end result of their program undeniable did outperform western counterpart in vista of health, bodily functionality, intelligence, mental state and multiples of working capacities and all that was done without splitting breed into different types.

Look, I’m not saying all of the SV or any other breed organization is bad, but the SV being the primary source of the working GS, well that ship has passed. We have gotten to a point that show or sport breeding looks down on working breeding. More working GS are sought from Czech breeders than anyone else in past twenty years. The United States has been moving in past 10 years to less importing for LE and more homebreds, usually from Czech or Czech/West mixes. People in the US that want a working dog are more apt to import a Czech dog than German or Belgium...for sport than German or Belgium. Germany is certainly still the Mecca of SL and along with Belgium and Czech/Slovakian dogs well represented in sport circles. I’M not knocking any of these breeders that produce good dogs, but we should never let working dog breeding take a backseat to specialty breeding,imo. We need all the types today, I guess to satisfy consumer desires.....but we also can’t lose the GS as a working dog or the breeders that are producing working dogs regardless of location or titles.

Corrupt? Midnight trials?

A very small percentage of breeders, handlers, judges is corrupt, but the overwhelming majority of club members just train on a regular basis, proud of their dogs -

But, hey, nobody outside of Germany is interested in those hard working people with their stable dogs.
John Doe is not looking for good dogs, John Doe is looking for famous dogs, for ribbons, for names.

Not the "system" is corrupt, but single people circumventing this system, making a lot of money.

What's wrong about the SV breeding requirements?

1. HD/ED check
2. Companion dog / BH
3. Endurance test
4. A trial-either
IPO
RH2
Herding
Police dog
5. Breed survey
6. New-the Wesenstest

The sum of it:
Minor proof of health, obedience, endurance, working ability, conformation...can't be that wrong...

It's about pass/fail - points and ratings are for those who want more.

Once again, this system may not be perfect, but it's able to weed out a lot of dogs absolutely not worth breeding.

You are fast in condemning a system that's still good enough to produce good dogs on a regular basis.
What is your alternative?
DDR rules? The single breeder not even able to decide about the stud he wants to use? Why did the overwhelming majority of DDR breeders literally run West as soon as the Border was down, begging for studs, begging for brood bitches for sale? Why didn't they stick to their healthier, more stable stock?

I said this before, I would be glad in case the US or any other country would be able to develop a better system, but honestly, when I visited the States for the first time ( the early Vollrath aera, who ever may remember ) people were hopeful, GSDCA,USCA, later on WDA - what happened?
Some single breeders/clubs understanding the sense of "working" dogs, the overwhelming majority still just breeding x to y.

It doesn't need to be SV, don't misunderstand me, but it needs to be a structured plan- without plan the result is the AKC registered ASL, and the few serious breeders (with or without trials) will remain the needle in the haystick.

Susie , I am in agreement with you : Yes the dogs should be tested for form , function and soundness. I've talked about this with WUSV , SV Judges several times. I wrote what I suggested but hit a key and it got deleted. So , in short , I want to see a test , not a title , a test that each GS should pass for structure, temperament , and an aspect to prove their functionality . But an IPO / Sch Title falls far short of this . I don;t say there has to be a so called Title. Comprehensive Testing of the dog is my requirement. A temperament testing aspect should have a number of steps, trials within it that prove the soundness of the dog.I can think of at least 10 individual aspects to test [ and perhaps more] I have seen some of these evaluations already instituted for police candidates in several countries. No GS should ever have a chance of passing if temperament deficient. In addition the GS should have a functionality qualification . If the dog is to have those traits that make it a protection dog , then I true test checking those aspects should be tested for. not some half as** test like IPO that has nothing to do with protection , but by nomenclature . That IPO / Sch courage test has nothing to do with courage and true protection. They should be evaluated as real life , true protectors with sound aggression . If that dog is going to utilized for Scent Discrimination it should be tested for that , herding for that , Man trailing for that etc, . All legitimately and with defined requirements. Structure , the dog must fit a strictly enforced and defined and measured Structure Standard. I don't want to see waffling like I did over decades about such anatomical features as in the different interpretations of the croup [ Anyone can see the history how the SV viewed the croup over time in many articles ] .I ave left out the specifics of each testing to keep this short. But I have them in mind as I have seen as I wrote testing done .

I think this will better help breeders have a better determination of what they will use , it will weed out those dogs unworthy to breed too. I want to see something that test people to show a minimum understanding about the dog and perhaps this as a requirement of licensing to breed !


The rules should be defined once ... and no more changes thereafter . No more politics . I want to see that in any breeding after a certain number of generations of line breeding , there can be no line breeding until a certain number of generations has passed.


If there exists an organization , the people/officers in the organization should have a few limited number of years in those positions and then they have time served - they are out and someone new in.

Ok .. As I wrote, I agree with Susie in her concept of a system and this is some of what I would suggest. WE need in every country a better , honest system .

The system has progressively been watered down to support the show line dogs getting their titles so they can be breed. It is way too choreographed to really assess courage, nerves and the willingness to fight an aggressive man.

So, the discussion continues...
We all agree, I think, that some system needs to be in place. Otherwise the product will soon become unrecognizable from the standard. (Some may argue that it already is, ie showlines.)
It is no secret that the SV in Germany has a lot of issues...and has been called out for alleged corruption for years. And very loudly too.
There are people in the SV that, for years, have been sounding the alarm for change to little avail.
As with anything...just follow the money. Alledged corruption in form of bribery and judge favoritism toward large kennels was/is a real problem starting at the top and trickling down to often even a local level. Much to the anger of a lot of local German club members.
We are talking about a sell-out of the breed standard for money and fame.
A lowering of the standard to accommodate some of the more empty-headed, frog-shaped showdogs. As long as there are REAL bucks involved this will hard to change.
If a highly ranked male can bring in a mid 6 digit sales price, hundreds of thousands of dollars....there will be corruption. Not only corruption of the SV but also corruption of the dogs. Using the same studs over and over again corrupts the genetic pool. As long as medical issues like HD are swept under the table by letting X-rays magically disappear, or HD susceptible pups being sold oversees to unknowing buyers...never to be documented...the SV of course can continue to brag about low HD levels due to their policies.
But as long as there is still ranking, this will keep happening as those pups go for such high prices. The nouveau riche from countries like China (but not only) are driving prices to the extreme and changing the breed. Italy...supposedly massive, massive SV fraud problems. And the list goes on and on.
The DDR did have a good system in place. But not because the people were better or different....people are people no matter where they live....they just did not have the financial incentives to go “corrupt” as in the west. Money did not really buy you anything per se. But the political powers did want to be “better” than the west in everything, including the Deutscher Schäferhund. That was politically the goal always to raise the DDR mantra.
It is a crying shame that our dogs are a commodity now. As are horses, which is also a shameful circuit.
To put it simply, money coupled with a competitive points/rating system will corrupt anything. We cant expect this system to change if too many are successful in lining their pockets.

But again, we need a worldwide system for breeding practices. We can’t throw out the baby with the bath water...since this is a system already in place, we need to keep our eyes on the goal and try as best as each of us can...even if its only writing in a forum, calling out issues, trying to work our dogs as best as we can and breed with the best info we can find.
A character/temperament test and conformation/medical tests must be mandatory in all counties for breeding. But is it technically even possible? A lot of systems seem to be collapsing lately (maybe I’m just watching too much political American cable tv news lately, LOL!)
 

susie, perhaps no one on this board than me, can more comprehend and share your justified hate of communist regime.
but i can't grasp why do you extend this to poor breeders of former DDR and their dogs to such point that even willing to spread misinformation?

Centurian, all in susie's list looks nice and could be even cool if to some degree would reflect real life practice. unfortunately it's way too far from reality. you and everyone else know it. actually SV/WUSV politic pretty much reminds me victorious reports of hated by susie communists, summarized in long lines at grocery stores by folk in sarcastic sentence - "life has become better, life has become more cheerful".

Jessejones, all these tests implemented in Germany. does it helps? or you think after implementation in other countries would somehow execution of them there could outperforms execution in Germany? as Gustav mentioned above, at the moment world's stronghold for working GSDs is former Czechoslovakia. sure for now. but what about tomorrow? you can't utilize 40-50 years old foundation without fresh blood in breeding and there are no anymore DDR dogs to refresh czech lines. there already quite notable tendencies toward "sporty" dogs rather than working dogs.