WUSV dogs that fail............ - Page 6

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Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 13 October 2017 - 06:10

As I understand it, Pluto was "new to the street", in that he had passed out of Training but this was him on first operational duties. And it went pear-shaped. He was hastily sent back to Training School, I believe, but I don't know if he ever ended up working as a PD or if he got re-homed in the end. Highly amusing, yes; but not to be taken as a demonstration of typical UK police dog performance.

And no, ValK, I only refer to them as "Alsatians" when they are bred by that minority of our breeders who like their dogs to be the shape of coffee tables.
Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 13 October 2017 - 17:10

And no, ValK, I only refer to them as "Alsatians" when they are bred by that minority of our breeders who like their dogs to be the shape of coffee tables.

 

Yeah... this dog is the favourite of the Alsatianists, and most of the dogs bred by them are descended from him. I believe he's also known to carry the gene for epilepsy.  Tongue Smile So, let's go and narrow the gene pool even further...Sad Smile

 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=415811-spartacist-of-hendrawen


by ValK on 13 October 2017 - 18:10

Reliya, i understand that. i was involved in the past into prepping the pups aged in timespan from 6 weeks to 40 weeks from border unit our local club had cooperation with. i guess selection, used by civilized canadian law enforcement can differ from barbarian communist border service, but not as much. service dogs are the service dog and should be able to perform particular tasks independently of ideological stance of political system. considering that since fall of "iron curtain", the West preference toward working lines established in the East block. thus main reason pups have failed testing - weak physical build, weak nerves, absence of defense traits, lack of hunt drive, soft temperament or unmotivated aggression. so, that is kind of future dog the buyer will get. add to this an inability to breed this dogs (which is good) and absence of registration, which will prohibed the dog to participate in dog's events. such conditions doesn't makes much sense.

Hundmutter, you have used interesting sentence "to 'bottleneck' them into trying to produce the sort of dog".
the show lines of the dogs isn't "bottlenecked"?
present lines of sport dogs isn't "bottlenecked" as well?
in former East Germany breeding been controled by government in very tough criterias of sellection, confirmation of which did only allowes the dogs to be bred.
isn't seems to you like sort of "bottlenecked" too?
Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 13 October 2017 - 19:10

Valk, can't speak for Hundmutter, but to my way of thinking, bottlenecks are created by too much linebreeding. I don't really see that happening with the working line dogs, but it definitely has happened with both the German show lines and the Alsatians.

Here's a pedigree from a U.K. dog that had to be PTS due to uncontrollable epileptic seizures. The pedigree also has multiple dogs going back to Spartacist of Hendrawen.

Check the pedigree of your average German showline, and you will see multiple lines going back to dogs like Palme v. Wildsteigerland, Canto, Quanto, etc. In both cases, most of the dogs in the pedigree will have the same ancestors, with no new blood coming in from other lines. That's what I consider bottlenecking.

Linebreeding - 5 generations
3 - 3............................................. in Lornaville Chief Dancer
5,4,5,5 - 5,5..................................... in Lornaville Jasmine
5,5,5,5 - 5,5..................................... in Lornaville Ulysses
5,5,5 - 5......................................... in Lornaville Summer Mist
4,4,5,4 - 5,4..................................... in Lornaville Sea Bird
4 - 4............................................. in Lornaville Princess Royal
4 - 4............................................. in Lornaville Strong Choice
5 - 5............................................. in Lornaville Crystal Star
4,4 - 4........................................... in Lornaville Charlotte's Secret
3 - 3............................................. in Lornaville Special Secret
2 - 2............................................. in Lornaville Firestone Summer Mist
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 13 October 2017 - 19:10

Of course there are other bottlenecks in the breed ... but when did two wrongs make a right ?
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 13 October 2017 - 20:10

Bottlenecks are created if there is no outcrossing into new unrelated blood. You can absolutely linebreed and there is nothing wrong with 3-3 so long you go out. Back then, we went into Showlines, to get diversity, coat, structure and entirely new blood but these days, people don't outcross. Look at this pedigree from my puppy. There is no linebreeding in the first 5 generations. None! Now this is a REAL bottleneck breeding and it doesn't even show how much Fero is in the 8th and 9th generation.

 

So this is where you have to outcross and my plan is to go into DDR and then breed back into my own bloodline to linebreed on my own dogs.

 

The bottleneck is not created within the first 5 generations. It's created in the back of the pedigree between the 7-10 generation. That's why it's so important to look into the back of the pedigree and see whats actually in there.

I was actually looking at a Fero free dog that would have still given me a linebreeding on dogs I like. So I would have gotten out of the bottleneck yet still have a linebreeding on nice dogs. But unfortunately the dog came down with a health issue...


by ValK on 13 October 2017 - 20:10

Sunsilver, i never bred the dogs. as a matter of fact all my dogs was males and only last one (canadian) was the dog with registration papers and first dog, i paid for. so, to be honest i'm staring at all that linebreeding numbers like at chinesse writing.

Hundmutter
well. if breeding the dogs with purpose they should be healthy, strong and hard is a wrong from your point of view, then perhaps in former DDR, from doing wrong they achieved right results.

by forbes on 13 October 2017 - 20:10

Personally I wouldn't mind have a dog that failed the RCMP...they don't charge a lot for their pups -it sounds like they prefer males over females so you could probably get a nice female ...and they are probably trying to breed for the best they can so...why not?

by duke1965 on 14 October 2017 - 05:10

LOL at various bottleneck theories, IMO we would talk bottleneck if all dogs in a breed are so close related that there is no way of mating to fresh/different blood,

BE you probably dont have two pups in a litter that are even a bit similair geneticly, and you think you need to outcross, really ? for what purpose, fresh genes, more differentation in a litter ? 

 

 

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 14 October 2017 - 05:10

Actually, you would be surprised how uniform this litter is.


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