2-2 Line/In breeding - Page 2

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Reliya

by Reliya on 03 August 2017 - 14:08

I don't personally care about the inbreeding. I'm just trying to get a better idea. Would you like to send it to me privately? Just cock my name and send a personal message.

I think, if the breeder is knowledgeable, 2-2 should be fine to lock in desired traits.

Koots

by Koots on 03 August 2017 - 16:08

What is your experience with the GSD and working-lines dogs? Without a point of reference to your knowledge, you could just be parotting what the breeder has told you and not really have the background to know the good/bad of these dogs. I am a proponent of line-breeding, my dog is 3-2 on Puci Jipo-me, but that is about as close as I would want from most pairings. To go 2-2, the dog would have to be exceptional and all health concerns addressed, for me anyways, and I would have to trust the breeder's intimate knowledge of the lines.

Close breedings will reinforce good genetics, and if the breeder is trying to reproduce a certain dog's traits then that is one way of doing so (maybe...no guarantees). OTOH, the only way to eliminate bad genetics that are recessive/hidden is to have them expressed by close breedings, then removing the animals from the breeding pool.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 03 August 2017 - 16:08

Yep, YaYa, it's as Koots says, it's a good (if possibly expensive) way to do a 'test mating', while the SV still allow it !

Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 03 August 2017 - 16:08

With all due respect to the OP, if you're not experienced enough to have your own opinion on the matter (and I seriously am NOT trying to sound rude by saying that- but no matter how I write it, it doesn't come across well), then if it's the litter I'm thinking of, I think that may be "too much dog" for you. I don't think anyone really experienced and knowledgeable about breeding is against the occasional tight linebreeding because it most definitely serves a purpose- I think too many assign human emotions generated by the thought of "incest" but I digress...I think it's about why you do it and whether you know enough to do it successfully and perhaps MOST importantly, where you go from there in the next generation (outcross, typically).

I am not against it- in fact, I just did THIS and WOW, are they like their grandparents! Little stamped clones. Now, this kind of thing had been done many times before, super super solid in terms of health and workability, so I get no points for being a pioneer in that regard- point being, no skeletons known in that closet. I felt it was a safe breeding, in that the "worst" wouldn't be bad temperamentally or suffer from any major physical issue.

I say if you feel comfortable with the breeder and that he knows his dogs, I wouln't worry so much about the ped- just as I'd say if the pedigree was completely outcrossed. Best wishes!!!


by joanro on 03 August 2017 - 17:08

Here is a line breeding that I'm planning in the next few weeks. While this is only 4-2 on Body jipo-me, the granddam in the ped is 3-2 on Puci jipo-me as she is littermate to Koots' male. So there is a lot of line breeding in this pedigree but I own four generations of the dogs used.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeding.result?father=2450409&mother=2388384

Mydog, Body jipo-me,will bring tremendous fight drive, clear head and power with faultless environmental stability and uncorruptable character. 


by YaYa x4 on 03 August 2017 - 18:08

And I forgot-

I plan on spaying, definitely not breeding mine. I want her for emotional therapy as well as diabetes dog (signal for hypoglycemic episodes and if possible for ketoacidosis). Plus, depending on her preferences and abilities, agility and/or flyball, tracking, etc. for fun.


The breeder's original intention was to keep at least a pup from this litter if there was one that turned out as he intended from this tight line breeding.

As to my GSD experiences, I had family members with them- my father had a coated male from Germany and an uncle who always had GSDs including several retired police K-9s. I personally have had more hunting dogs (Weimaraners, a Rhodesian ridgeback, Labradors, springer spaniel) and rescues (pit mixes, border collie mixes, keeshond mix, etc.).

My thoughts scientifically and mathematically are that this could be wonderful with these 3 seemingly unrelated lines, but reality and theory frequently do not pan out as intended. That is why I came here, not to have people tell me to run or worry that I may not be able to handle a strong or stubborn breed, because Weimaraners, Rhodesians, Pitties, and BCs really try to run the roost, too! but to point me to subtle nuances that could be telling with this tight of a breeding. To share their successes or maybe their slow to fulminate failures.

Thank you again for any experiences and insights!


by YaYa x4 on 03 August 2017 - 19:08

-Jenni78-
Thank you for copping to having done this and sharing. How old is that 2-2 litter? Old enough to verify results through titling or health tests? Do you have pics of grandparent and of the "clones" to show off?

*I do understand that repetitive tight (in)breedings can damage lines and entire breeds. I also know when a breed is being created, controlled tight breeding is used. It stands to reason that if done on rare occasion and with researched and verified (near) perfect dogs, it could re-inforce specific traits or a standard. Ideally, it would be wonderful if all breeders had access to dogs similar to that 'ideal' who is completely unrelated, but that cannot always be done for geographic or financial or registration reasons. I can imagine at this point in the conversation that some people would say then it should not be done at all in that instance, but then I think back to the breed creators or historic breeders in countries with limited availability to outside lines.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 03 August 2017 - 19:08

The SV's decision probably lies in the fact that there are now such huge numbers of the GSD breed available everywhere that there is no longer an excuse for close inbreeding to be done for breed stabilisation or improvement, unlike in its early days of development.

Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 03 August 2017 - 20:08

Mine is a 2-3, not a 2-2. I have never done a 2-2. This is the closest I have ever done. Sorry. My pups are young- just 3 mos. now. By clones, I mean firsthand info from the grandparents' owners and breeders with relation to how they compare to mine and one such person saw video and used the term "clones." The uniformity was rather significant, both in temperament and looks. Not identical, of course, but very very similar. First litter that wasn't all black that I have needed ID collars for.

Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 03 August 2017 - 20:08

I think the decision is political, like many decisions made in the dog world.





 


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