Another dog abuse PB Fla.Sheriff s Dept - Page 3

Just using common sense, I wonder if the life expectancy of canids in the wild is more influenced by starvation, or by being susceptible to predators and inability to keep up with the protection of the pack.

Swarnendu, 60 hours sounds bad, but we are talking 4 meals, two days. All competitive athletes people and dogs would easily miss 4 meals to maintain or cut weight. It is a very common practice among wrestlers and evidently some military dogs. Try it yourself you will learn something about diet and willpower.
I don't expect to change your mind, but there are other practices that are not harmful that should not be condemned because we are not familiar with them.

Biophysiologically , fasting does have many beneficial merits. In general , outside the realm of scientific reasoning and fact.. consider , many religions through thousands of years have advocated fasting.. Maybe .. maybe ... even thoudsands of years ago mankind understood the benefits of fasting [ for himself and his animals] . Besides , it is written : [ for humans and no less for an animal ] " you don't work , you don't eat ".

So how does the notion of fasting differ from starvation , and what determines, which is which . When does food deprivation change from a normal condition to an abusive condition ? Many people will fast more than 1,2, 3 days.... Is that to much to think an animal would not and how many days should an animal go without food / or not go without food ? A side comment. The " think tank " notion - for those that don't know that is when a dog is put into a crate for a number of hours in order to increase the dog's desire to work . That is a form of sensory deprivation. Many people in sport or working the dog does this too ... [ off topic but related ] .. is that abusive ? Dog's are pack aimals , but is it abusive to give them a time out ? Some dogs are kennel dogs ... is that abusive to deprive them of ' pack ' environment ?

For every single endeavor , personally , I always get my answer to my question from my dog [s]. No matter what endeavor , training , nutrition ,etc etc ... " THE DOG ALWAYS ALWAYS HAS THE ANSWER ". The dog* will always tell me what I need to know and what I need to do ! . It is my responsibility to ask the right question. That is my personal philosophy - one can choose to take it or leave it.

SO ... I ask my dogs about feeding and fasting ... Simply , I observe my pack of GSs and they tell me that it is most beneficial for them at times to choose not to eat ! Many of my GS will go a day or two , now and then .. more frequently than one would predict , without eating. Often I would have friends telephone me worried , that their GS had not eaten... Yes , at times we do consider an underlying health issue. But most often , most often, their dogs similarliy will start eating within normalcy after a couple of days. The message is that my GS and my friends' GS are telling us what they at times need. On their own volition , that this fasting , is at that time , best for them. As for people .. and being exceptionally educated in nutrition - I skip explaining the value or the same for humans. If you listen to what the dogs tell you ... you will have no problem...

A side note here : I have seen many many posters here with phenomenal knowledge shared .. Prager , Duke , Black Malinois , Gustav [ a I have neglect writing about some others with similar knowledge ] .... In considering , not opinion , or subjective matter , but considering objective, factual matter... why is it that I see so many times people agrue and try to debate with this people ? What gives ? Most of you debaters have no idea of what you talk about and it seems the knowledgable posters always get some kind of argument / protest when they try to share something of value.. What's up with many of you ?

What gives? The definition and determination of "knowledgable poster" is indeterminate. The list you have formed is debatable, itself. In a breed where one's dog is an extension and declaration of personality and manhood, the posturing is inevitable.

As far as fasting and starving, and listening to your dog, we do that involuntarily at times. If they are forgotten to be fed and Mojo is feeling really hungry, he will flip his food bowl and make a racket with it. No ignoring that message! Balance, in all things is the key. Namaste.

@Swarnendu:
I have never tried deliberately fasting a dog for more than one day per week, or on any lengthy regular basis. Because I have not become convinced of the benefits of it. The Domestic Dog is no longer Canis Lupus, it hasn't been for a very long while. I have come to lean more towards the idea that if dogs are starved all weekend, every weekend, there is probably a matter of human convenience behind that, rather than concern for the dog's health.

Having said that, certainly a dog fasted every 6th & 7th day of its life is unlikely to ever become obese. Which in today's world is a very good thing. But that would, for me, at least be predicated on the resolve to ensure through amounts fed on the other 5 days that the dogs food intake was balanced up and its condition not affected. A dog as thin as this one has zero bodily resources to draw on should it become ill, perhaps with gastro-intestinal problems. Adequate hydration would only help with that, it would not answer it completely.
I say this as one who has frequently pointed out on PDB that I am one of those who really does not like my dogs too heavy, that I always want to see the outline of at least a couple of ribs on any dog before I consider it of correct weight for its heart & joint health, and that people therefore in the past have criticised me for keeping them what they consider too thin.

Actually I am swayed somewhat towards Centurian's argument; if a dog does not want to eat on some odd days, one should listen to it. It won't die, if its otherwise fit and healthy, if it skips a day ! Unfortunately I find the argument doesn't really work well in reverse; dogs being opportunistic feeders, they will tell you they are "really hungry, Mum" even when you know darn well they can't be. One reason so many pets end up overweight.

Centurian, I am a Hindu. Thousands of years ago our ancestors started this notion of fasting especially for the widowed women, because remarriage was forbidden, and it was convenient when they died faster.

Later researches have shown some benefits of intermittent fasting, skipping a meal, or fasting for a day (IN IRREGULAR INTERVALS) has some detoxifying benefits. But, the same you can also achieve by eating healthy.

I ask you back, what is the difference between fasting and starvation? Isn’t one of them “voluntary” and the other “forced”? When you deliberately withhold food from your dogs for “2 and half days every week”, what is that? Fasting or starvation? “Many people will fast for more than 1,2, 3 days…” -should they be forced to do that?

“I ask our dogs about feeding and fasting”- we all do. As beetree has already mentioned, we FEED them when they indicate that they are hungry, and it’s rare for a healthy and fit dog not to ask for food for “2 and half days every week”.

I didn’t react to the idea of withholding food for the afternoon training, so your “side comment” was off topic AND unrelated.

Regarding your opinion about argument/protest, we all respect the experiences of the knowledgeable posters, but would expect that those knowledgeable posters wouldn’t use “proclamation of experience” as a firewall to deflect all protests and instead come up with some scientific arguments to back up their unfounded claims. Let’s hope that no one here has learned everything and has nothing to add to their knowledge base.

Gustav, yes, it’s common sense that life expectancy of canids in the wild is influenced by being susceptible to predators and inability to keep up with the protection of the pack, AND starvation.

Powerflex, there is a difference between “intermittent fasting” and withholding food for 60 hours (it sounds bad because it IS bad). The former is beneficial, the latter is not.

I also do not expect to have the expertise to change your mind, but would request you to kindly study more about the differences between the two, there are plenty of literature in the internet, some of them mere opinions, some backed by scientific research.

I don't see from reading the below excerpt where there is any such instruction to withhold food for 60 hrs. at a time. I think that method and thinking has been addressed to a more common sense ideal for a modern, hard working MWD. Care is taken to the time of (each) day.

6–24. Feeding dogs

MWDs require a diet that is significantly different from that of pet dogs. Their work demands much higher levels of energy and larger quantities of essential nutrients. Therefore, a special feed has been developed for these dogs. This food, Feed, High Caloric, Medicated, NSN 8710–00–403–4565, is commonly known as Maximum Stress Diet (MSD) and is procured through normal supply channels. MSD is a pellet size, dry dog food that can be fed directly from the container or mixed with water. It has measured amounts of medication against heartworm and hookworms. The amount fed depends on the weight of the dog.

a. MSD is packed in either metal or fiberboard cans sealed against moisture and contamination. Units should not keep more than a 30– to 60–day stock on hand at the kennel. Once a can is opened, it must be stored in a cool, dry location to protect against spoilage. If a can is opened and found to have an excessive amount of moisture or if it emits a foul odor, it is probably contaminated or spoiled and should not be fed to the dogs. Instead, return the can to supply for disposal.

b. Special diets may be procured and fed to individual dogs when the veterinarian determines that other than the standard diet is required. Normally, specially prescribed foods will be available from the local commissary.

c. Some dogs have been trained using a food reward schedule that also requires special food. Food reward is used only if a dog fails to respond to any other type of reward. Procure the special food through normal supply channels or by authorized local purchase.

d. Food other than MSD medicated should not be fed to MWDs except under the conditions described in b and c above.

e. The amount of MSD each dog should be fed depends on the dog’s weight, amount of activity, and the climate. Local veterinarians determine the proper amounts to feed.

f. The veterinarian also prescribes the time of day each dog is to be fed. This depends on the dog’s duty schedule and the schedule of other kennel activities.

g. After the prescribed feeding period, leftover food is disposed of within two hours and feeding pans are cleaned and put away. Never leave uneaten food in the kennel past the feeding period. The food spoils and, if eaten, makes dogs sick. 

http://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/p190_12.pdf

And as far as fat pet dogs being opportunistic feeders, it is actually their learned begging behavior that is the fault of the owners. If a pet dog is fed regularly with the proper amounts and not left with a continuously filled up food bowl, there is the opportunity for them to feel hungry.

Big difference from the eating/dopamine reward of treats that are eaten as offered, at any time. Nice try though to rationalize not feeding a dog for 60 hrs. each and every week. Which is vastly different from intermittent fasting, that has already been pointed out.

There are several reasons a dog won´t WANT to eat

1. It is overfead
2. It is not feeling well
3. It is a picky/spoiled eater

In case of

1. - the owner should feed less
2. - the owner should try to find out why the dog doesn´t eat ( any desease?)
3. - the owner should change the behavior

Even in wildlife every hungry dog will try to eat as soon as it is hungry - in case there is no food the dog HAS TO fast, but surely not out of its own mind, but out of need ...

Decades ago we didn´t tend to feed our dogs prior to training ( f.e. tracking with "hungry" dogs ) - over the years we realised that overly hungry dogs are not able to learn well, they are only able to concentrate on food, but not on the tasks they are supposed to learn - today the smart trainers even feed at the morning of a trial - only a littlebit, but enough for the dog to be able to concentrate itself.

Any athlete will eat prior to a trial ( the food based on the needs ), in case of endurance sports even during the trial, simply because the body NEEDS some power, and the mind, too.

No dog will die in case there is no food for one or two days, but it not only doesn´t make sense, it´s counter productive, too - and feeding for 4 1/2 days, followed by not feeding for 2 1/2 days on a regular basis, is abuse in my book.