XIA Founder? - Page 2

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susie

by susie on 20 July 2017 - 21:07

Sorry, just read your post -
no, I wasn´t even aware you posted in the classifieds...

I just think most ( if not almost all ) breeders of "DDR dogs" don´t even know what they are talking about.
As soon as someone asks a detailed question about "DDR dogs" there are no answers, but silence.
The average "DDR" breeders are only able to talk about color, head, bones ( and working ability without actual proof ).

I am pretty sure there are some single breeders still knowing about the "orginal DDR dogs", but they are like a dime in a douzen, and they don´t seem to be members of this board ( I guess they are even too old to speak English at all / DDR citizens had to learn Russian, not English as 2. language ) - all the others are not better than all those breeders advertising "worldclass puppies out of titled grandparents".

Fantom76 (admin)

by Fantom76 on 20 July 2017 - 21:07

I had contact with Werner Dalm who was a long time DDR judge and got quite a bit of information from him over the years. 

Little tid bit.  Most of the DDR dogs that we talk about are really showline dogs who were in the Siegerausstellung   Werner explained that many of the dogs in the DDR-Deutschen Meisterschaften were consider "ugly" and many were never bred. 

For example:  Achmed vom Mutental participated in the 1967,68,69,70,71,72,73  Meisterschaften being V1 twice and posting perfect 100 scores in tracking 5 times in that competition. His top score was 100/100/96=296.   Poor Achmed only had one testicle and so was never bred but I think he was a handsome dog.  

Alk Landesberg was V1 3 times and V5 once (his top score was 98/100/98=296 ) but I can find no record of any progeny for him.  So another example of a top working line dog  whose line is not carried down to currrent day dogs.

The one Working line dog that most are familiar with is Lord vom Gleisdreieck who was V1 in the 1985/86/87 Deutschen Meisterschaften.  He also had 100 in tracking all 3 times. He was quite prolific.


Lunastar

by Lunastar on 21 July 2017 - 02:07

Mystery solved! I was right the '81 is for 1981 the year when he was listed in the DDR Korbuch (Körbericht) book aka breed survey report book,  as XI-A Pushkass v Haus Himpel: "By 1981 (the last book I currently have at my disposal)
the only lines left were V-A, XI-A, XI-B, XI-C, XII, XIII-A
New headers in the lineup was  XI-A Pushkass v Haus Himpel.
Sometime after that lines XI-D and XI-E were added."

I found that on a webpage that explains that roman numerals are used to keep track of the true DDR bloodlines via the original sire's number: http://www.ddr-k9.com/zuchtlinie.html


Fantom76 (admin)

by Fantom76 on 21 July 2017 - 02:07

I have the DDR KB 1955, 1957 -1985/86. What page is that in the 1981 KB. I can not find it. Please send me a copy of the page. My eyes are getting bad, and the print is small, so I might have missed it.


Reliya

by Reliya on 21 July 2017 - 06:07

The breeder I advertised for is in Germany and has been breeding for twenty years, Susie. She tried explaining the bloodlines to me, but I couldn't understand.

kitkat3478

by kitkat3478 on 21 July 2017 - 08:07

I in no way pretend to be a DDR Dog expert, but I do like the DDR dogs, and it was only by dumb luck many years ago that me and my sister bought one.
there was no internet yet, at least not prevalent like today, and, info was hard to come by. you did not just go into the small town library and check out a book, Everything you Ever Wanted to Know About DDR dogs.
The dog was impressive, she was big boned,strong and very intelligent dog. She would insist you get busy with her. She would not take no for an answer. you had to at least play ball, or fetch the stick or she would let your shins feel the pain, no kidding.
it took quite awhile to catch on, with limited access to info. I know we liked what we had in DeeDee, so,
I remember when I first found the Pedigree Database, it was like I hit the jackpot, dog pedigrees where I cou;ld actually see my dogs family tree, PLUS A BONUS message board.
I couldn't dial Jeannes number fast enough, lol [oh, how simple minded we were].
anyway, I do lots of research on all the bloodlines, all the time, now, I got to admit, I learned something new tonite;

I found this info :BECAUSE OF" this post
DDR Zuchtlinien

With regards to discussion DDR bloodlines, you may have come across the expressions "no line 13", or Line 5-A, etc. Have you ever wondered what that
means?? Well, although it is not necessarily simple to trace, it is not a mysterious code. In the old DDR, certain much-used foundation dogs' bloodlines
(Zucthlinien) were given a corresponding number, sometimes seen on a pedigree as ZL:XIII-A (13-A) or ZL:XII (12) etc, When another dog in future generations
became a very proponent sire, he was given his own corresponding number, and so on. Their offspring carried the sire line's number (never the dam's). By
learning a little about the bloodlines, and by knowing who the key sires were, you can glean a great deal of information about the dogs in their background, just by
knowing the ZL#. For example, Tino vom Felsenschloss was from ZL XII (12). Knowing this, I would know that he (and his offspring) go back (eventually) to,
Utz v Haus Schutting. Again, remember that you only follow the sire line.

Here are the early bloodlines and some of their notable offspring most often seen in our DDR pedigrees:
As there are only a few lines left, the others have become extinct. These are the lines listed in the 1962-1963 DDR Korbuch:

ZL: I (Line 1) Roland v Teglerforst
ZL: II (2) Utz v Haus Hiller
ZL: III (3) Nestor v Wiegerfelsen - via Gotz v Meisterrecht - Volker vd Zeiter Schweiz
ZL: IV (4) Nestor v Wiegerfelsen - via Bodo v Reinickenburg
ZL: V (5) Nestor v Wiegerfelsen - via Otto v Scharlachkopf - Berol v Ungunst
ZL: VI (6) ( erloschen - Lost )
ZL: VII (7) Odin v Stolzenfels
ZL: VIII (8) Baldur v Befreiungsplatz - Cuno v Wickrather Schloss
ZL: VIII-A (8A) Odin v Stolzenfels - via Sigbert v Heidegrund - Kurt v Schafergruss
ZL: IX (9) Curt Herzog Hedan - Odin v Stolzenfels - Tasso vd Maienhohe
ZL: X (10) Baron vd Deutschen Werken- Gockel v Bern
ZL: XI (11) Ingo v Piastendamm
ZL: XI-A (11-A) Ingo v Piastendamm - Trutz a.d. Schwanenstadt - Lex v Preussenblut
ZL: XI-B (11-B) Blitz u.d. Hergussregnern (Ali v Granert son)
ZL: XI-C (11-C) Brummer u.d. Hergussregnern (Ali v Granert son)
ZL: XI-D (11-D) Ingo v Rudingen
ZL: XI-E (11-E) Ohle v Rundeck
ZL: XII (12) Utz v Haus Schutting - Gelmo v Hooptal
ZL: XIII (13) Klodo v Boxberg
ZL: XIII-A( 13A) Donar v Zuchtgau - Asso v Milzau - Armin v Milzauer Konigsgartchen - Fred v Frauleinsplatz
ZL: XIV-B (14-B) Artus v Wilmstor - Egon vd Silberkrone - Othello v Bergnest

In the 1971 DDR Korbuch, I found the following changes:
Line I was gone, presumed extinct.
Line IIA was added - (Utz v Haus Hiller line down through Gero a.d. Jurgenklausen. )
Line III was gone, presumed extinct.
Line V had a branch - line VA (Nestor v Wiegerfelsen down through Immo v Hasenfang)
VI, VII gone,presumed extinct.
Line VIII-A (8A) was headed merely as: Odin v Stolzenfels - Sigbert v Heidegrund (no Kurt v Schäfergruss)
Line IX gone, presumed extinct.
Line X was headed by: Gockel v Bern - Trick v Schlossfelsen.
Line XI was headed by: Ingo v Piastendamm - Arry v Siegfriedsried - Gnom v Piastendamm
Line XI-A was Ingo v Piastendamm - Trutz a.d. Schwanenstadt (no Lex v Preussenblut)
Line XII was headed by Tell v Colonia Agrippa - Gero v Haus Elkemann.
Line XIIIA was now headed by Rolf a.d Urnenkeller
No Mention of Line XIV, presumed extinct.


In the 1972 DDR Korbuch, I found the following:
Auf grund des großen Umfanges der bisherigen Linie XI A wird diese neu eingeteilt in:
(On the basis of the large circumference of the previous line XI A this is newly divided in:)
XI A: alle Vaterhunde, die auf Rolf v Osnabrucker Land zurzückgehen, ohne Ali v Gränert
(all sires descending from Rolf v Osnabrucker Land, except Ali v Gränert)
XI B: Ali v Gränert und seine Söhne, ohne Barry v Andershofer Ufer
(Ali v Gränert and his sons, except for Barry v Andershofer Ufer
XI C: Barry v Andershofer Ufer und seine Nachkömmen
(Barry v Andershofer Ufer and his descendants)
Die bisherigen Linien XI B und XI C werden unter XI B eingeordnet. Alle anderen Linien bleiben unverändert.
(The previous lines XI B and XI C are incorporated under XI B. All other lines remain unchanged. )


Also in the 1972 Korbuch, I found the following changes:
Line X was headed by Trick v Schlossfelsen. Line XI was headed by Gnom v Piastendamm.
Lines XI (ABC) were divided as mentioned above.

By 1973, all mention of Lines 1 through -4 were gone.
Line V-A was now through Gundo v Stolper Land,
Line XIII-A was through Rolf a.d Urnenkeller descendants Rigo vd Schiebockmuhle - Fred v Falkenbruch;

By 1975, the following changes:
Line XI-B was through Ali v Gränert - Barry v Andershofer Ufer - Condor v Falkenwappen
Line XII was through Gero v Haus Elkemann - Clodo v Rudingen - Gero v Guckelhorst

By 1978, Line XII was through Gero v Haus Elkemann - Clodo v Rudingen - Frei v Baruther Land

By 1979, Line XIA included Don v Haus Himpel

By 1981 (the last book I currently have at my disposal)
the only lines left were V-A, XI-A, XI-B, XI-C, XII, XIII-A
New headers in the lineup was XI-A Pushkass v Haus Himpel.
Sometime after that lines XI-D and XI-E were added.

Below I will list some of the significant dogs under the remaining lines (in alphabetical order to make it easier) :

Line V-A DOGS include, but are not limited to: Alf von den Schwarzen von Monstab, Aron v Poppitz, Arry vom Ludwigseck, Baldo v Wolkenstein, Bandit vom Thostgrund,
Brando vd Buttstädter Flur, Burt v Sandokan, Condor vom Haus Christian, Condor vd Tonteichen, Cyrus v Haus Fasold, Dargo vdThüringer Kronjuwelen, Daus vd Ratsta
nne, Don and Dux v Clausberg, Don v Rolandsteich, Duran v Weidegang, Erko v Turmpark, Fedo Quercus, Fred vom Wartenberg, Gerry v Welwitz, Gay vom Poppitz,
Gundo v Stolper Land, Hank von den Schwedenschanzen, Hanibal vom Ludwigseck, Henk v Mameluck, Iran v Tannenkrug, Iwan vom Poppitz, Jasper vom Haus Iris,
Jim vd Stadt Schmalkalden, Karol vom Haus Ellernbach, Kosta v Haus Iris, Larus and Lord vd Grauen von Monstab, Leon v Königswaldereck, Lito v Trafalga, Lord v Redefiner
Land, Lump v Geisdreieck,Mingo vom Rummelplatz, Markant aus Westsachsen, Neuman's Jim, Rex v Haus Iris, Rimo v Tannenberg, Sam v Osterburg Quell, Till vom
Ludwigseck, Trux v Haus Iris, Uncas vom Poppitz, Vage v Poppitz , Yake v Schwarzhorn, Yasko v Königswaldereck, Zorro vd Wildsau...


Line XI-A Dogs include: Bac v Weissen Holz, Bero v Baruther Land, Grand v Haus Himpel, Jim vd Friesenklippe, Olf v Furstendamm, Pushkass v Haus Himpel, ...


Line XI-B dogs include: Arko v Gräfental, Back v Puma-Pass, Baras v Gräfental, Barry v schwarzen Fliess, Berry v Christelas, Bill v Fasanenhof, Cay v Echoberg, Charly vd
Ratstanne, Cliff v Bleichfleck, Condor v Marderpfahl, Ex v Riedstern, Gero v Haus Kaiser, Gomo v Osterberg, Hacky v Echoberg, Hanko v Haus Assja, Iwan v Rundeck,
Mediceer vd Pelzmuhle, Quax v Haus Holland, Sascha vd weißen Taube, Skay v Schotterhof, Trutz v Schweinitzer Dörfchen, Trux v Hamstereck, Voker and York vd Heulage,
Yago v Haus Valentin, ...


Line XI-C dogs include: Addi v Haus Fasold, Bodo v Winkel, Boy v Hohenwarthereck, Casar v Rangental, Grand vd Ziegelwiese, Henk vd Moschel, Lars v Furstendamm, Seigo
v Angerholz...



Line XI-D dogs, descending from Ingo v Rudingen include: Addi vd Tonteichen, Alf and Alk vom Osterburg Quell, Bero v Friedersdorfer Flur, Bill vd Wahrburger Straße, Black
v Babylon, Birko vd Wolfshöhle, Brando vd Marderklause, Cliff v Osterburgeck, Hassan vd Hasselwiesen, Held v Ritterberg, Gomo v Schieferschloss, Greif and Irko v Peri-
Hof, Jeff v Flamings Sand, Lord v Gleisdreieck, Peter vom Gleisdreieck, Quindt v Baruther Land, Unkas and Utz v Schäferliesel, Utz vd zwei Steienen, Xanto v Gundorfer
Höhe, ...


Line XI-E dogs descending from Ohle v Rundeck include Artus vd Westendöhe, Ayko vom Ludwigseck, Barras vom Gräfental, Basko v Haus Seefeldt, Ben
vd aberlohe, Bob vd Neptungrotte, Bodo v Sandokan, Donak aus d
em Tempel der Ceres, Esko and Eldorado v Gräfental, Falko vd Buschecke, Fels v Kemmlerblick, Fin von der Bismarcksäule, Heino and Henry v Ödland, Irko v Brandenburger
Dam, Leo and Leon vd SchwedenschanzenLex v Aspenhaus, Nando and Nestor vd Gnitzer Höhen, Pele v
Kiebitzmoor, Pero vd v Schwedenschanzen, Sando v Haus Iris, Viktor v Wolfstal, Xoran v Ludwigseck, Yello v Haus Iris, Zorro v Laager Wall...


Line XII dogs include Arek von uns Heimaturt, Aron v Sachsentram, Bilbo vom Schladebacher Wäldchen, Carl-Heinz vom Wartneberg, Dino and Duke v Felsenschloss, Don v
Furstendamm, Don v Rio, Dragon v Felsenschloss, Eggo v Ammerberg, Eik and Enzo v Clausberg, Filu v Kaolinsee, Gero v Guckelhorst, Golf and Grand v Ritterberg, Iroc vom
Haus Iris, Janosch vd Sperlingsbucht, Klockow's Uncas, Lärry v Wolfseck, Lux v Kameruner Eck, Mentor v Haus Iris, Pluto v Königswaldereck, Quando vd Grauen v Monstab,
Queick v Ludwigseck, Ron v Ludwigseck, Tino v Felsenschloss, ...


Line XIII-A dogs include: Alf v Körnersee, Apache von der Fuchsaue, Arak vom Thostgrund, Asko v Belgeraner Land, Ben- and Blitz v Klodener Riss, Brain vd Sperlingsbucht,
Cent v Haus Wedus, Cliff v Geraufer, Cliff v Laager Wall, Dolf v Hechtbrunnen, Don and Derrik v Haus Iris, Don von den Wilden Teufeln, Dusty v Geraufer, Dux vd Citroperle,
Eddy v Felsenschloss, Ellex v Haus Iris, Elvis v Grüntal, Enzo and Evan von den Grauen von Monstab, Falk v Anhalter Hof, Golf v Clausberg, Götz v Gräfental, Grand v Haus
Kaiser, Iltis vd Wildsau, Iwo v Parchimer Land, Manto von der Amsche Wiese, Muchta v Schwarzhorn, Quando and Quast v Haus Dabbert, Quiyk vom Gräfental, Sven v
Gräfental, Theo v Poppitz, Tino vom Schäferliesel, Veith v Haus Iris, Wotan v Gleisdreieck, Xito v Baruther Land, Xoran v Gräfental,


If you do not see a significant dog on this list, please email me


kitkat3478

by kitkat3478 on 21 July 2017 - 08:07

this makes no sense tho, it is said that the DDR began breeding in the 1940's when Germany split

 


Voss von Bern HGH PD TD Zpr male
1929
SZ 388635
HD-
Sire

Voss von Bern


ZPr

1929 SGR, International Champion, DDR Line X II (Foundation) Utz vom Haus Schütting ZPr male
1926
SZ 331999 (AKC 707401)
HD-
Sire

1929 SGR, International Champion, DDR Line X II (Foundation) Utz vom Haus Schütting

 


Fantom76 (admin)

by Fantom76 on 21 July 2017 - 11:07

O.K. I found the reference in the 1981 KB. I had not looked in the picture section. You are looking at the pictures on page 113. Just because you find a reference to Pushkaß vom Haus Himpel in that KB does not mean that 1981 has any significance. The importance is that Pushkaß is considered a founder of the XIa line.
Pushkaß is also listed as the founder of line XIa on
Page101 of 1980 DDR KB
Page 78 of 1982 DDR KB
Page 174 of 1983/84 DDR KB
And probably some earlier ones. So as you can see, 1981 has no significance.


Fantom76 (admin)

by Fantom76 on 21 July 2017 - 12:07

From 1949-1954 the SV set aside specific registration numbers to be used for DDR dogs. In 1955 the DDR started it's own registry. The reason that you see dogs listed in earlier years is because they are considered the precursors of these founding DDR dogs.

kitkat3478

by kitkat3478 on 21 July 2017 - 13:07

gotcha, I sort of was thinking along that line, as there actually is no other explanation, lol
I do like finding out new tidbits of info on the breed where ever I can.
you can never know too much, or know it all...[despite what others think]





 


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