Just another Sport Dog - Page 30

BW, why do you have to write something that will be censored to respond to what I wrote. ( or extreme sarcasm or exaggeration)
I didn't write anything inflammatory....I didn't say all dogs of any venue were great. I have acknowledged your diligence and work in sport which is current, nobody is saying Joan's dog is perfect, but from a potential LE point of view I see potential. What makes that buddy ball? I didn't say it was top sport prospect, and if you see things that would cause you concern I understand( I wouldn't look to her to get a dog for what you are currently doing ), but I see some good working traits in the dog that I think can be developed. No more, no less. Your dog in short clip looks good for what you are doing....I complimented your dog!
Pretty much all of us here posting have experience training and titling dogs, so there is value in all of our opinions...especially in fields we have worked in.

Centurion, I believe you when you say you could have killed the dog with a weak bite.
When I was given the sales pitch about training my dogs to defend themselves by attacking the hand with the weapon, my response was; all it takes is a bullet to stop any dog. I want my dog to just give me time to get my own gun.

The salesman still tried to convince me that a bad guy cannot shoot a trained dog fast enough....yet yesterday I saw a report of a family on a path to a fishing spot in Alaska who were attacked by a grizzley bear. The 11 year old boy pulling up the rear of the group, saved four family members by shooting to death the attacking grizzly bear....coup de gras was the boy putting a kill shot into the bear as it slid past him ...

Back in the day, police work and military work wasn’t anywhere near as demanding for dogs as it is today. On top of that, Schutzhund wasn’t anywhere near as demanding as it is today. Both venues look for similar traits, but train different tasks. Today’s highest scoring/most successful dogs are trained day in and day out to perform certain tasks in the way that IPO asks them to be trained and as close to perfect as possible because that’s what they’ll be judged on. There is a crazy amount of precision and a borderline unnecessary amount of control the dogs are asked to have that they’d never need in “real life work.” Dogs that will eventually be police dogs, get trained on the tasks they’ll need in their line of work. It’s a different picture, it’s a different goal. To expect a high level sport dog to walk off the field and be a police dog without any additional training…is completely ridiculous. You want to discuss lower level club dogs? Dogs that are owned by hobbyists and glorified pet people that come out once a week and do a little biting with their dog and hopefully title by the time the dog is 5? How can you expect that dog to come off the field and do the higher level police work that is expected today? A police prospect is trained by a professional, trained at least once a day in every task the dog will be expected to perform. Many police dogs go from the kinds of videos that duke has posted on here many times of his evaluations, to being fully functioning and certified in 2-3 months.

The reason I see most “the dogs are different” people hang their hats on that theory…they lack the ability to train the tasks. Plain and simple. A complete refusal to admit that if a different direction were taken with a dog that is kept back in a higher level sport home…the dog would more than likely be able to be a police dog. For example…your belief that Joan’s dog and the dogs she breeds…can’t do what my dogs and what I do...and in the same breath…you believe my dog is incapable of law enforcement work and that the dogs that I’ve bred wouldn’t be capable of it either because my breeding goal is high level sport prospects for myself. You believe this because I just haven’t mentioned that a pup or two I’ve produced have become LE dogs…and they haven’t…but that doesn’t mean I haven’t had offers, in fact…I have a standing offer for pretty much any puppy to be sold into LE. I have a young dog who could be on his way to a police academy tomorrow…but the offer from a sport person is almost twice as much as it is from the police trainer. Another fun fact I haven’t cared to share because I prefer real facts over stories…when my current dog (the miserable tool of a robot in the videos) was returned to the breeder due to the owner’s health issue…the breeder received multiple offers from people who saw the dog work to buy him for police work. Breeder valued the dog’s working ability and future breeding value more as a sport prospect and didn’t want to sell to a police trainer. But as someone famous always says “what do they know?”

Still trying for hidden sleeve clip

Bw, all three of the dogs that I trained and titled, I trained concurrently, and titled concurrently...every one of them at clubs hundreds of miles from home that I nor my dogs had ever stepped foot on before trial time.
They were all three more than a year old before I started training them...the first one I titled sch1 when he turned two years old. The following weekend I put sch 1 on my female and three weeks later, I put the sch2 on her....with high score in trial in protection, at a very big trial...the very same  day, I put sch1 on my show dog.

And I don't 'bite train my dogs once a week'. It's more like once a month any more, if that. All my dogs that I finished training for sch (I finished training 7 dogs but only trialed three before burnout) have died of old age...raised every one of them from puppies. But see, I am retired. I had a very full career as a multi-species trainer and made a living performing with my animals all over the United States and Canada.
Coming from a very poor background and zero financial suport from anyone ever, I have managed through perseverance, dedication and tremendous work ethic, to accomlish most everything I ever wanted to do in my life, including AFTER retiring, to raise, train and title german shepherd dogs for Schutzhund...a dream I had of doing since I was a little kid ....
Some of my dogs have and are competing in sport, a couple went to be apprehension dogs at PD, one female currently being used for narc and gun detection at schools and prisons.
Show the world what you have accomplished by the time you are closer to seventy than sixty...I hope it is at least half of what you dream of doing with your life.

PS, Nothing In Life Is Free...

BW...where have I ever said that your dog was " incapable" of LE work? I have said on many occasions that there are dogs in sport that can be LE dogs .....so if I have said that on many occasions and I have NOT said anything about what your dog couldn't do......how do you come to conclusion that I feel your dog is INCAPABLE of doing LE work. Please explain....I'm confused!
Also, you speak about abilities/training of dogs in past quite often, the reality is your knowledge of training and dogs of the past as is your knowledge of LE dogs is very very limited, and yet you constantly make statements about both in comparison or exclusive to what you do presently. People who are well respected in these fields have tried to tell you about the separation that has evolved, and you maintain ( based on extremely limited knowledge and no experience to speak of about dogs in past or LE dogs) that the primary differences in these dogs ( IN GENERAL) is the way they are trained.
Like I said before, twenty years from now if you are still in the breed you will have evolved in your thinking.....everybody does!

it is definately NOT a training only matter if a dog is suitable for sport, or for LE,
I sell green dogs, meaning with minimal training and can assure you most dogs I sell for (top)sport are not suited for LE, and the dogs I sell for LE are mostly not even pedigree dogs anymore,
but selection on suitability is made BEFORE training process starts, selection is made by TESTING, and to me testing is not something a dog can do after two years of training.

Im sure a lot of these dogs will still be sold to LE, be it for detection only, or to people with different standarts, like the german police for example, they pay less and want sport type dog

Gustav...you want to call my knowledge limited, well, your knowledge of today's ipo and especially high level ipo and high level training is extremely limited...to the point that I'd call it non-existent. You want to throw the experience argument out there, yet always fail to admit that in recent years, your experience is very very limited as well. I know how this game works...age age age, someone's lived longer? They have to know more.

So I'll give you the same thing I gave joan. You win. You know all. You're a master LE dog trainer as well as IPO. I can't wait to see you at nationals this year or the next. Or in 20 and you can tell me "I told you so" as it seems that only after decades of mediocrity does anyone earn any respect when it comes to dog training. There is no such thing as proven success in the United States. Everything seems to be measured in how many stories you can tell and how many names you can tell people you know.

BW: 'There is no such thing as proven success in the United States.'


Evidence of a complete meltdown !! And didn't your mommy ever teach you to respect your elders?
Obviously not !

Like i said before, it's the likes of so-called ipo enthusiasts such as youself that are ruining the sport with your snobbish attitude and disrespect for every one who is not you. You keep moving the goal posts...now you have nothing but disdain for every dog person who is not going to the 'nationals'....as though that is the penicle of success everyone must strive for. 

I bet you could not get anywhere near the nationals if it wasn't for a breeder other than you, and a dog raised and trained by anyone other than you. Something about your temperament tells the world that you just don't have what it takes to start a dog and train it to that level and not loose it when the dog doesn't measure up to your demands....you just don't have the self disipline, self respect, nor respect for other people nor dogs to make a true champion.

BW...did I say your knowledge in IPO was limited or did I say it was limited in LE or dogs of the past? I have acknowledged your training in IPO and I haven't participated in IPO for yeats. Everyone knows that. BTW, you constantly throw IPO nationals in folks face, what year did you compete in IPO nationals? How about Regionals ? Name the years and where, cause if you haven't done it you shouldn't be using it to beat others over the head. And if you haven't done it what makes you other than average?

Also, will you answer question of where I said your dog was incapable of LE work?

Or are you incapable of admitting you made that up to further your argument?smh

BW, I don't think we have to go to this level. I sent you a pm. I know you are very enthralled with IPO and I understand the passion and belief that it is center of training world. Continue on your journey, and I hope you make it to the top. I have no problem with my mediocrity, as long as I am able to help some people🤝