USCA Sieger Show - Page 9

Everyone make up their own gsd according to personal taste???

Really we just get another designer breed, if we haven't already.

"Personal taste" combined with "no rules" is the real problem...

I am NOT against agility, barn hunt, dock diving, or anything else ( SAR, herding, and so on ) - whatever sport is able to entertain dog and owner is fine for me.

Agility is hard work, at least in my country...just take a look at the " Agility Bundesssiegerprüfung"...quite different from AKC...

But let´s be honest - almost every trained and titled IPO dog is able to participate in those venues with more or less success, but most of the dogs participating in those venues "only" are not able to participate in IPO ( or KNPV, or Ringsport ).

Different "jobs" = different temperament/character/genetics...

• IPO/KNPV/Ring sport = still asks for "hardness, courage, fighting drive", willingness to work, prey drive, defense ( believe it or not, in case you don´t believe, start to train, and think about the performance of your dog compared to others )
• Agility = willingness to work, the best specimen do have "hardness" ( at least in my country ), but there is no need for courage, defense and fighting drive
• same with "obedience"
• SAR = willingness to work, prey drive, the best specimen do have "hardness"; defense and fighting drive a no-go
• Barn hunt = prey drive / hunt drive - no defense, no fighting drive
• Dock diving = prey drive / hunt drive, no defense, no fighting drive
• AKC herding = hunt drive / prey drive, no defense, no fighting drive ...

I am pretty sure I forgot some sports, but this should be enough for the overall picture. In case I misinterpreted something, sorry.

All of those alternative "sports" don´t test for " hardness, courage, fighting drive" - that´s fine as long as those dogs are not used for breeding - no harm for the breed -

but as soon as you start to select breeding dogs based on "alternative sports" only ( or worse: based on no selection at all ) the chance to loose working dog traits that are part of this breed will increase dramatically with every generation bred without proof.

The GSD is no Border Collie, although belonging to the "herding dogs", this breed in its origin was not only a herder, but defender and protector, too. Not only the herding style is different, but the mindset of the breeds, too.

When Stephanitz created the GSD out of all those different herding/defending/protecting dogs he was well aware those dogs don´t herd "only", but do have defense and fighting drive, combined with intelligence and willingness to work for its handler.

Right now ( in the best case ) we are at a point where people ask for intelligence and willingness to work, but don´t ask for defense and fighting drive any more.
I don´t like that ( but that´s just me ).

Funny you mentioned AKC agility is easier, that's correct. Its not hard to see the modus operandi of the AKC. Lower the entry level for everything to get the most people involved = more fees.

Animal welfare and breed integrity pssshh.

 

AKC is the lowest possible bar (no pun on agility).

AKC is a dog registry, no breed club.
All "titles" offered by AKC are not created for one single breed like the GSD, but for all breeds.
It´s about entertainment first and foremost, not about selection.
"Selection" would be the duty of the responsible breed clubs, but that won´t happen as long as the registry is with AKC.

Yeah but 99.99% of people that want a pretty ribbon or certificate go thru an AKC or variant event.

The thing about who is responsible for what breed club or registry is convenient, in reality complaints get lost between the two and they both play off their responsibility of welfare to the other.

Is has turned into a relationship focussed on just fees. Club level volunteers do all the work to run events, the breed clubs and akc just take the money and promote more people getting into it to make more money.

Shitty set up.

That's why here there are real performance clubs with high standards running parallel events, they are only valued by competitive trainers striving to be their best with competitive performance dogs.

Breeding standards have nothing to do with the AKC. The breed clubs have been relaxed for too long and make way too much money staying that way. The culture is to make things as easy as possible and if they become harder, people will just find a different registry to go with. This isn’t the first time I’ve heard it from foreigners that the biggest goal in the United States is to sell puppies, everywhere else it’s the breed. Most breeders just need to be able to convince enough puppy buyers that “their” version of the GSD is the right version or what they’re doing is the right thing, nothing else really matters. Their niche is the ability to sell…funny enough, most don’t even see the truth when they fail to sell.

There is an innate drive to sell puppies/make money in this country. It’s not really about bettering the breed or going out and enjoying whatever it is you’re doing with your dog. For some reason the end goal always seems to be making puppies and a few thousand dollars…whatever the quickest/easiest way to do that is what most people take. In today’s marketplace, it’s getting harder and harder for buyers to differentiate between good breeders and bad. It used to be that doing a little titling showed you’re better, getting a championship showed you’re better, doing SOMETHING showed you’re better. But with the amount of “participation titles” we have today, people can throw letters behind their dog’s name without training a SINGLE day for a trial. I’m also seeing “CHAMPION POINTED” be put in front of dogs…that’s right…now just showing up to the show and doing something will get you something additional above and beyond just a regular dog. There is very little added value to puppies right now when the sire/dam are titled and done the right way and tested…and every day it’s diminished more and more by people convincing the masses that a dock diving title proves the same thing that an IPO title does. Hips/elbows is the one thing we’ve kind of been able to push…and even then I know breeders who will breed a dog with elbow dysplasia and figure out a way to cover it up or be able to convince people it’s not that big of a deal.

If people focused less on the end game of producing puppies, and just enjoyed their dogs and then when the dog proved itself they’d breed it, we’d be in a much better place. Right now, the only goal is to figure out the cheapest way to convince buyers that they’re worth buying from at $1500+ a pup.

Lol how many first time dog owners have posted on this forum asking "when is it too young too breed" or variation.

Its true, a lot of people with a gsd are foremost thinking how many puppies can I sell. I wish that was just cynical but its reality.

So many great dog owners and trainers never breed a litter.

So many breeders never train a dog.

they sure are quick tho to get on forums and trigger emotional responses with their cute puppy pics of the latest litter....over and over.

And the sieger show…it’s probably the most expensive of the routes. At the moment, WGSL are still returning the most bang for the buck…you’re talking $3500-$4500 for a puppy out of titled parents. A titled stud and a bitch with a BH is getting close to that, and if you want to not have any issues, ask $2000, about what a WL out of titled/national level parents is going for. Getting a V rating is a lot of work as it’s been stated before, and I do believe the way the current sport is judged it’s extremely difficult for a regular person to get a title and therefore enter the working class in order to achieve that V rating that is desired on show lines. Lack of opportunities to enter shows is also a killer, there are rarely “club shows” in a given year and most people either have to show at their regional show or possibly the sieger show…where dogs are likely to get lower ratings (working lines) due to more competition.

Also as long as the United States is able to import the working stock they need (for real work) the resident breeders can do whatever they want while selling to the pet market and not worry about filling the demands of the working market.

"If people focused less on the end game of producing puppies, and just enjoyed their dogs and then when the dog proved itself they’d breed it, we’d be in a much better place".

100% True statement. Greed takes over everything. People should be informed enough to support breeders that trains both dogs they import (with all the right potential) or breed themselves. No one knows their dogs better than those that train and live with them. That's a fact.

It's a GERMAN Shepherd and they should be the only ones with the accepted standard.
It's your choice if you wish to follow it or not,
but any other "standard" is something "like" a German Shepherd or bred "from" a German Shepherd.

It may indeed be a nice dog, but is not "truly" a German Shepherd in the factual sense regardless of what anyone deludes themselves into thinking or justifies in their minds.

German Shepherds are like coinage, if you keep minting them without following the real standard, the die eventually wears out and the coins start losing sharpness and detail.