USCA Sieger Show - Page 7

Momma - At the bottom of page 5, vk4 asked a very good question, and I think it would be interesting to read what your reply would be. For all the working dog breeders who "have little to no understanding of structure" (your words) how would you educate them as to the show line structure being more suited to performing work.

 

Western - one comment has nothing to do with the other.   My obtuse reference to writing style is more a statement about Momma's antagonistic and beligerent posts.    I give Dog 1 full credit for being courteous and explanatory when replying to Momma's acidic posts.

So do I and it shows that one does not have to be rude and snide just because the other party is.

That is class Dog 1

Thank you, Dog1...

"our" system is based on team work, no matter if we are talking about working lines or show lines -
successful breeders are willing to give away puppies for free to successful handlers, often co-owning the dogs, willing to pay half of all expenses...that´s investing in the future.

Normally there is one breeder, one or two clubs, and a couple of people supporting the kennel name ( trial handlers, show handlers, helpers, and so on ), a lot of dogs are co-owns, that said even the biggest breeder ( most often ) only has a couple of dogs at home, most are with club members, who train, title, whelp litters, and so on, supervised by the breeder - a win/win situation for everybody, including the dogs.

The very few successful US breeders do follow the same system, they do have a team, they are willing to invest, whereas the "regular" US breeder wants to make quick money out of puppy sales.

What Susie said about big breeders is correct. They all started from ground zero and through hard work and desire, and probably a few experienced mentors helping them, and eventually gained the success they sought.

But this still does not explain the phenomenon that over the past 30 years has radically changed showing in Germany. I have been to 19 Sieger Shows in Germany starting in the mid 1990s while Hermann Martin was still SV President and judging the males. I believe he and his contemporaries began the politicization process which led to the current situation in Germany. If you look at Sieger Show and Landesgruppen show results under his predecessors, Dr Rummel and Dr Funk, you will see that the playing field was much more level.

The Viernheim Mafia as some called them, perhaps those who were jealous, which included Hermann & Walter Martin, Hans Peter Rieker, Peter Send, Ernst Ruckert, Margit van Dorssen, Helmut Buss, Heinz Henrici, the Messler brothers and a few others began to dominate the show scene. Today, there are far fewer small breeders and individual owners exhibiting from Germany but the percentage of foreign participation is way up, especially the Italians. The bigger German breeders are using surrogates now in Italy and the Slavic countries to breed, and train their dogs. They cannot find enough young Germans to help them.

Wolfgang Henke, the first non show breeder SV president, chose (yes, I know, they had to get elected but no one was going to take a chance on an Ossi like Thomas Teubert), Henke selected a series of big breeders as breed wardens---Heinz Scherer, Eric Orschler, Reinhard Meyer, Lothar Quoll to help him because he was in no position to do it himself. Heinrich Messler current SV president, and inhaber owner of kennel von Aducht, is no fool. He has clearly seen the writing on the wall. The SV is going to shrink even further unless it becomes an all activity club, not just a schutzhund, or IPO and soon to be IGO sport. Showing requirements will have to change if they are to remain relevant.

The reality is that in the 21st century IPO, even watered down, is too much for the average person to successfully accomplish, timewise and to an extent difficulty wise. In todays world, dog ownership, to appeal to a wider audience must be fun and not just hard work. And gratification must come quicker. There are other ways to test breeding suitability and working ability other than IPO. Von Stephanitz created schutzhund as a breed tool and also to convince his friends in the Berlin Police Department that his beloved DHS, GSD, could be of use, since herding was on the way out in the industrialized Germany of the late 1890s. Later, when schutzhund became a sport and became more difficult, it began to attract fewer and fewer people as it became more difficult. The whole issue of control is relevant to this. One need only look at what schutzhund trials were like in the 1930s through the 1960s to see the difference. A sport in which only a few, the diligent and highly motivated can succeed is doomed from the standpoint of mass appeal.

Now, 120 years later, the question becomes what kind of dog should the GSD be. It can still be a police and or military dog. But is such a dog a good fit for the average pet owners home? Is it required by anyone other than the police or military. The answer is no. And therefore, it makes the most sense for this training---and please believe me---I know that IPO does not make a dog suitable for the military or police, that it is only a sport, but its roots stem from that purpose and therefore it is questionable as to whether it is necessary at all for the tiny minority of owners who want to participate in an activity with their dogs.

England invented football (soccer to the Americans) but they do not dominate the World Cup or Euro Cup. The playing field is level. That cannot be said about the show scene in the US and other European countries. The results would certainly be very different if the rules of these countries stated that only dogs who were native born, who were trained in their home country, and whose parents were native born could qualify for a regional or national championship or a VA rating. This would level the field, even with German judges and famous German handlers. Grandparents could still be German, but the smaller breeders and owners would have a much better chance. No more flying VA or high V dogs from Germany to pick up another title and freeze out the locals.

As for the WDA, its demise can be traced to the election of the last president. But the election which he won, perhaps by cheating, could have easily been avoided if the president before him had stopped him, while he was on the executive board, from taking over, from dominating, from constanly speaking out of turn, from skewing the exec board votes and several other unethical things he did. If the previous president had known how to be a president she could have controlled and stopped him all within parlimentary procedural rules and the last president would never have had a chance to have run, let alone win an election. But though she had many good qualities and was a fair person, she did not know how to be president and how to control a rogue like the last president. There are many parallels in history. But as the Germans say, Das ist vorbei. Its over, no point even talking about it anymore. Now it remains for the GSDCA and the USCA to work for the international style GSD. Unfortunately, neither has, at present, the will or more importantly, the desire to do that. Each are dominated my power cliques who have entirely different agendas for the GSD.


 

Klossbruhe, you touched a nerve -

what do you think is better -

to change the rules so "the average pet owner" will feel well with his GSD ( and breed the heck out of it )
or
to insist on the rules and live with less GSDs ?

Personally I believe in working dog temperament, and I think a IPO trial is the minimum a GSD should be able to achieve prior to breeding.
I don´t think "everybody" should own this breed, but only people who are willing to invest time and sweat into this breed, willing to select, willing to improve.
I don´t care about less breedings, I don´t care about less SV members, as long as the breed doesn´t change ( in temperament, in character, in working ability ).

You are right, society changed, even over here, but the breed doesn´t need to change.
I´d feel pretty comfortable with less dogs, but good dogs according to the breed standard.

I know I will loose this battle ( even over here ), because people tend to go the most easiest way -
but will this help the breed as a whole?
Why does everybody think it´s a problem in case the GSD wouldn´t be the (almost ) most bred dog breed on the world?

I still believe in quality, not in quantity.

Hello Susie
First, let me say, I have, over the years, titled 7 dogs which I have owned from BH to SchH3 or IPO 3. I like the sport and after 30 years am still actively doing it each week. I have been in 3 clubs and am the Grunder und Erst Vorsitzender, der Obmann as the Austrians like to say, of my present club. But I also care about the show scene. The total German Shepherd Dog. And I agree with Stephanitz, no working ability, no German Shepherd Dog. But there are other ways to show that ability than IPO. And remember, Stephanitz did care about conformation and the show scene. And in 1929, we see the first modern style Sieger, Utz von Haus Schutting. Stephanitz was prepared to change things including structure. Utz does not look like Horand, or Tell von den Kriminalpolitzei...Stephanitz also insisted that the GSD be a household companion. But households have changed since he died. I have seen next to no DHSs in the homes of my German friends, breeders, judges, ordinary owners. Why? They have little tiny dogs but no GSDs. Why. Because today's high powered GSDs crazy for IPO or crazy for the show ring are no longer suitable for todays home. For your Oma and Oppa, yes but not now. When German judges come over here, they are amazed that we keep our dogs in our homes and not outside somewhere in a Zwinger. They laugh at us. Our culture is different. My dogs sleep in my bedroom. My Hundins on my bed and they all score 85 or more in Schutzdienst. One consistently scored 95 I think we, the average pet dog owners who keep our dogs in our houses, have to be better trainers than those who come once or twice a day to the Zwinger to work their dogs. For those dogs, it is the high point of their lives. Im gegenteil for pet dogs. Let's say, you are sitting on your sofa and across the room you tell Flocke Sitz and she doesn't. We have to jump up and show her that there are consequences to that failure...we have to get out of our easy chair. We have to make Flocke realize that ein Befehl ist ein Befehl as the German Leistungsreichters are constantly telling us. Flocke must learn that one moment we may be petting her, but if we say, platz, then she had better platz.

You Germans used say, ach, der Deutsche Schaferhund (no umlaut on American keyboards), ein Schweizer Messer am vier Beine. First at nothing, second best at everything.

So what do I think. I think the training of GSDs for the police and military should be left to the them. And I agree that IPO should be kept as a sport for those prepared to make the necessary sacrifices, but I do not think IPO should the THE requirement or the only requirement (yes I know HGH is also allowed but how easy is it to get an HGH these days, Bravo Karl Fuller, Bravo Wilfred Scheld and others like them). No, I think there are other ways the GSD can be tested. Even agility, Barn Hunt, Fly Ball other things.

You know when I was a child, every blind persons dog in the US was a GSD. No longer. You never see GSDs as blind persons dogs. That is only partially the fault of Germans, it is mainly the fault of Americans. You have to admit a good IPO DSH is not a good candidate for a blind person or a therapy dog. But such a dog could be a good Rettenhund or Zollamp hund usw. But a less sharp GSD that maybe can still get a Bestanden in IPO could be a blind persons dog...

I do not agree with you that there should be less GSDs. No, we can have multifaceted GSDs, how do you say it in German Vielseitig---didn't the SV call it that for a while when the term Schutzhund came under attack after the incident in Hamburg some years ago...

I would not be so quick to say, yes, lets have less GSDs, just as long as they can do IPO. GSDs are better than that. They can do more than that. And the times have changed. We can still insure that our GSDs have working ability, whether it is good Unterordungs obedience, tracking, herding, agility whatever. It does not just have to be IPO and that should not be the only requirement for showing.

When you say, less GSDs so long as they can do IPO (which I happen to like), you remind me of working lines fanatics in the RSV. I like a good biting dog, but that is not the be all or end all. And I think, if Stephanitz were alive today, and I think Messler to his credit has come to recognize, that the GSDs can do many things and that we should recognize these things and allow these other activities hopefully in the future to be used as an entry ticket to the show ring.

"Vielseitigkeitprüfung (VPG )" was DVG, not SV.
SV directly switched from SchH to IPO because of public attacks...

You don´t know me, my dogs slept in my house for decades ( I grew up with kennels, but changed my mind pretty soon ), I started in DVG, owned a workingline without pedigrees, for the last decades I owned show lines, and I don´t believe in Raiser...way too narrow minded for me...

but IPO and breed survey for me make the difference between a "regular" dog and a "working dog".
"Vielseitigkeit" ( the universal dog ) is the important term -

a lot of breeds are able to track well
a lot of breeds are able to perform well in obedience or agility
a lot of breeds are able to perform well in all those "fancy" dog sports

but most of them are not able to perform in all 3 phases, including phase3 / bitework - and that´s the difference ( at least for me ),

the GSD doesn´t need to be the best tracker, the most obedient dog, not even the best breed in bitework,
but the GSD should be able to do all of it ( not one or two parts only, but all of it ) -
"Vielseitigkeit".

All the countries that don´t require adequate working tests prior to breeding do have major problems with temperament and working ability, our IPO trial and breed survey may not be the end of all, I am still waiting for better ideas, but as long as no country is able to establish any better test it would be reckless to skip IPO and breed survey.

The OWNER of a GSD doesn´t need to participate in IPO, but the BREEDER should, at least in my opinion.

Why do I even care?

The breed is split already - into ASLs, Alsatians, show lines, working lines ( not even mentioning the Chinese whatevers, Shilos, off colors, and so on ...)

SV will change the rules sooner or later, just because German breeders, handlers, and exhibitors, don´t see a sense in sticking to the rules whereas everybody outside of Germany ( and in some cases Europe ) is able to do whatever he or she wants ( less work, less requirements - who cares? ).

For me a failure in the SV system - every country/breeder not sticking to the original SV rules ( titles, health tests, DNA ) shouldn´t be allowed to participate in SV/WUSV events - it´s not always helpful to think "globally" only for the sake of quantity...

Global pressure - local pressure - self made pressure... the result will be a nice looking pet.

I wish this discussion could be had without the throwing out of absolutes and extremes in order to divide the factions even further.

As a WL person, I am very interested in the reasons for the downfall/ignoring of all parts of the SV system in the United States, even the shows. But it's extremely difficult to have a discussion when the usual "why buy from me" lies/lines are thrown around for no other reason than to bash the other side.

There shouldn't be such thing as a WL person or a SL person. There should only be a GSD person.

And an SL should work well and a WL should work great.

A WL should show well and a SL should show great.

It's about balance and at no point should anyone feel any regret, dismissal or disdain for someone owning either when properly bred.

I'd be perfectly happy with either when bred properly. Anytime.