USCA Sieger Show - Page 6

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by Dog1 on 07 May 2017 - 05:05


It's all good. I'm OK with my 3 past VA males and 7 past VA females, numerous National Champions, some bred, and some imported. We didn't get VA this year but our picture on the podium will be in the magazine.

We can agree to disagree on a few things. I'd like to recap a few of your observations and offer what I feel may be another perspective.

If I may summarize your thoughts, you feel the shows and results have a political influence and some top places, particularly the VA1 positions were earned not with the best dogs but as a result of favors.

The problem I see with this is it casts a dark cloud on what otherwise was two very well organized and fair shows. We really don't need the negative vibes and doubts about the quality of judging at this time. The public needs to know and understand there's opportunity for success at these events as long as the organizations continue to pick the right group of judges.

Fortunately we have two organizations where the SV conformation line dog is on the back burner. We simply don't see the situation we had with the WDA where the shows were corrupt. The GSDCA is an American show dog club that's putting a square peg in a round hole with the SV program. There's no one associated with the show that has any political connections to the show world. I don't think anyone connected with the event even has a SV style dog. Their choice of judges seems to be luck of the draw and so far it's been pretty clean.

USCA basically the same thing. Working enthusiasts putting on a show. Who in the organization that's connected to the show even has a show dog?

We're fortunate to be starting with a pretty clean slate. Let's look at the results, the VA1 and see if there's room for any other result than what was awarded in question. Let's give it the acid test and see if any favor can even come into play.

VA1 USCA sieger show Prada vom Externstein. This female was #2 in the world under this judge at the German Sieger Show 2015. She had 8 first place finishes under 6 judges in Germany leading up to this placement. She had seven first and one second place finishes under 5 judges after that. Who's going to top this? If anyone thought any other female in the class was going to top this, they just don't know the system. The only other dog in the US that could have won was a female I imported, VA Raja zum Gigelsfelsen and she was not competitive as the USCA rules are different than the rest of the world. This class wasn't even close. Where's the possible favor with the #2 dog in the world being first. Actually if she wasn't, that would be political.

Working males under the same judge at the GSDCA, same owner as Prada. This is a dog that was campaigned extensively in Germany. He placed V29 at the 2014 German Sieger Show. Other dogs in the class were V40's. Bear in mind it's a breed show and Paxx had a very large consistent group. How could any dog be placed in front of this dog? No other contender had the placement at the world level or the group. Again it wasn't even close.

There was no favor. Nothing to be suspicious about. It's the result you get when you put in the work to be successful. There's a good result for your effort and hard work.

You also commented that the judge commented about the Mittelwest kennel being the type of kennel we need here in the US. Your thoughts were opposite. That's really the problem we have here. We're not following the German model anymore. Look at the model. It's self supporting and it's where the opportunity is in this country. One person usually a breeder, has offspring from their program going to others that are the foundation for the training club and support the events.

This model is what we need to get back to. We need the progeny groups, we need the kennel groups, we need the participation and most of all opportunity the Model provides.

Where does someone go to get involved? Where's the next person that's going to do the SV program our two organizations are struggling to maintain going to come from? If they become a part of the German Model, they have a chance. Buy a puppy and don't get involved with some person, some entity that can show you the way to go and you get lost in the details and it's game over for that person in the SV system.

Find a stud dog that's here to progress and develop a group, find the kennel that participates at these events where you can become a part of their team, put in the work and be the person the better dogs go to and you're on the way to building the foundations of what this country needs to get back on track. Just look in the catalog and there's your list of people that can help you. The ones that are there.

We're actually at a good place with the shows. There's enough affecting them that real, costs, availability, participation, etc. that we don't need unfounded opinions adding to their demise.

by momma on 08 May 2017 - 01:05

Gee gosh so sorry Dog 1, I did not recognize your accomplishments. Who were the dogs you list and where did they VA (if you don't mind me asking)? And thank you for the link I missed on the VA1 female and her history. Now it will be interesting to follow the ownership going forward. Could you also list the 8 first place finishes where and who the the judges were? And if you don't mind who were the 5 judges that awarded second places and where. I just love gathering stats.
Your comments are changing as we continue this topic in case you don't notice, we are noticing. We need progeny groups, why? we need kennel groups, why? The long coat male that was VA1 had not one pup to date produced by him. He is a great mover but certainly not masculine. The V1 male presented a progeny group, was extremely masculine and had higher placements in other countries. Explain that if you can.....


by Koots on 08 May 2017 - 02:05

Did BW get into the WGSL scene??   What Smile Wink Smile

Western Rider (admin)

by Western Rider on 08 May 2017 - 02:05

Koots if this is a real question would you please explain it to me as I don't get it.

Otherwise I will consider it a Bait.


by Koots on 08 May 2017 - 03:05

It was a question based on observation of a certain writer's "style" in this thread.

Western Rider (admin)

by Western Rider on 08 May 2017 - 03:05

Mrdarcy and I work very hard keeping members from having two names so a "style of writing" will have the members name no need to guess or assume who wrote something.


by Koots on 08 May 2017 - 04:05

At the bottom of page 5, vk4 asked a very good question of momma, and I think it would be interesting to read what the reply would be.
Western Rider (admin)

by Western Rider on 08 May 2017 - 05:05

Your post Did BW get into the WGSL scene??  has nothing to do with that post that I can see.


by Dog1 on 08 May 2017 - 06:05


No problem helping with the statistics since you just love gathering stats, I'm here to help. I don't mind a bit. I realize you are new at this.

All the information you request is right on the internet for you and everyone else interested to access. It's right at your fingertips. Let me walk you through the process.

If you want to research someone or a kennel here on PDB, all you have to do is click on their name and whatever information the person or kennel wants to share appears. Just click on whatever information you are interested in. As an example you can click on Dog1, that's me. Once you have done that, my information is displayed. You can click on my kennel and go to my webpage. There you will find the VA dogs you are interested in listed right on the first page with their pictures.

From there we can find out all the information about each dog, Where they went VA, who the judge was, how many were in the class, their pedigree, hip and elbow status, who they were bred to, etc. by searching the dogs name either here on PDB or Winsis-Cat.

Since you're familiar with PDB. Let's move on and check out some of the specific information about an individual dog. These would be the "stats" you are so interested in. Let's look up the information you were asking about the VA1 female, her show record for example. Let's do this together. We can search her on the internet. Her name is Prada vom Externstein. Go ahead and search her name. You will see a result with her name from the website This is the Winsis site I mentioned. Go ahead and click on this result.

Did you find it? In case you didn't here's a link:

Now that you're on the link, you can access her "stats". Click on the tab that says 'Show Events'. This is where you will find her show results. You can now see all the results, her placement at each show. You can click on the event to see what type of event it was, how many were in the class, what the date of the show was and all the "stats" you are looking for including the judges.

Now that you know where to find information, you can look things up yourself and be an informed contributor here on PDB. We all will appreciate it and we're looking forward to your future posts armed with all the "stats" to reinforce your opinions.

You mentioned the longcoat VA1 male had no progeny group but the V1 male did. Here you are confused. There were 6 groups in the catalog. The V1 male Grisu was not listed with a group. He did not have 6 or more offspring entered in the event. From my recollection he only had one offspring entered.

What you may be referring to is the Kennel Group. Raf (Grunwald Haus) The people that own Grisu had a kennel group. It's different than a progeny group. The progeny group is made up of 6 or more offspring from the same male. The purpose is to see what traits the male passes on to it's offspring. The kennel group is made up of 5 dogs from a kennel. This competition is to see the results of a breeder. There is a degree of difficulty factor where to be competitive, the breeder tries to produce a group of dogs with different combinations of mothers and fathers. I know it's confusing, I hope I explained it well enough for you to follow along.

You bring up two excellent questions and I'm once again, happy to explain. Why do we need progeny groups and why do we need kennel groups?

It's a part of the SV Model I was telling you about. These groups especially the progeny group helps the breed, the competitors, and the event. Let me put this in perspective. There's a lot of opportunity here so it's important to understand the concept and the way it works.

In Germany a male typically progresses through the youth classes into the working class. A good place in the youth classes generally gets you noticed and begins your career. The breeders look at the young dogs and select the best young males for their females. As the females produce litters, the best are hopefully retained, shown and go on to be included in the father's progeny groups. Once in the working class, the quality of this progeny helps the father get a better place or rating.

The same should happen here. A few years ago it was, now, we see from this year, not so much. These groups are important because the show the quality of the males and the skill of the breeders. A demonstration of who and what betters the breed. In this process you have breeders and stud dogs that are trying to prove themselves in these two competitions. (Here comes the opportunity part) In order to compete you have to have dogs in the show. These dogs have to be with people that will show them. Every stud dog owner that's trying to develop a group (Like Paxx at the GSDCA show) is extremely interested in getting their best offspring into show homes. If you want the best prospect in the litter, just say you're going to train and show it. Want the worst puppy, just say you're looking for a pet. See the difference?

As the breeders get behind a male, as the puppies are produced, as the better specimens go into show homes, as the better show specimens are involved in the clubs, as these dogs are entered in events and shown/trialed, the SV Model is formed. The system where the motivation is there in the right places for the best to be the best and the Community to grow. This opportunity is what we have to cultivate here for the GSD to grow.

by GSD911 on 08 May 2017 - 15:05

Sorry for the OT regarding WinSys.
Apparently, some shows
and trials do not appear documented in WinSys. I'm not certain why,
but I did have it happen to me at least twice.

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