Mastiff Type Heads in the GSD - Page 5

Out of all the things you can breed for, type is the quickest and easiest to change into a new form and to lock in.

The Germans historically are the masters of fixing type. Compare say US breeds, there is usually a wide range of acceptable types eg who even knows what an AB is supposed to look like, there are so many different types.

Its no surprise conformation showing is the biggest venue, its the easiest thing to breed for.

Behavioural traits are the most difficult if not impossible to set and the most unstable. For those that know anything about actual herding you can start with the very best foundation stock and lose it all in 3 (dog) generations even tho the dogs all look exactly the same.

Beetree, look at every other breed to come out of China. Chows, Mastiffs... they ALL look like that. Even 99% of their small breeds are short muzzled and full of wrinkles. It's what they like. Just like Americans, all of their "spin-offs" are exaggerated in very typical ways, bred as flash couch potatoes, either way oversized or way undersized.

Actually, I looked at all their breeds, and no, percentage-wise, it seemed to me that there are more dogs NOT like that. Take a look at the Chinese Crested, for one. I do agee that what is common to many of the Chinese breeds is a penchant for some sort of extreme, be it wrinkles, be it size, or an exuberant coat, there is even one that is very wolf-like, etc. There are certain breeds not fit for any couch, too. A Chow-chow is a very aggressive animal, not a couch potato, at all.

So because a Chinese Crested Dog or a Peke isn't bred with a huge head, the fact that Chow Chows, SharPei, Tibetan Mastiffs etc ARE is irrelevant.
Oh, okay. Perfectly logical. :(


ALL these arguments - and some others - were advanced back 3.5 years ago:
Thred started in July 2013, by Sitasmom.
To Excesses ! P 1-17.
www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/community.read?post=

Can somebody make the link 'live' for me please, it won't do it for me (but the thred is still available, as are the large number of references it contains to websites, kennels and videos).

Also mentions that Ibrahim posted:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=697329-4-fun&pagen=13

which I am now going to go back to, to refresh my memory as to what was said on that one. Bye-ee...

Hundmutter, your link didn't work (part of it's missing) but I did manage to find the thread, more by luck than anything else:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/community.read?post=734745-to-excesses&p=1

 

My search for the thread title led to this thread, which had a link to the above thread:

Apparently the 'search' function here doesn't do thread titles, only the content of threads, but 'excess' is a word pretty commonly used to describe these dogs!

 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/community.read?post=802279-oh-my-lord-i-will-never-speak-ill-of-an-asl-again-after-seeing-this

Um, and the link you gave to Ibrahim's post gave me a thread in the OT section...don't think that's what you wanted??

You obviously are missing my point, maybe deliberately, that the Chinese have developed diverse breeds of all types and you are only dwelling on the one's that fit the picture and have used this observation in a statement defining it as a cultural trait.

If the picture is a cross, and not a photoshop job, and we also know that the Chinese will import and pay for expensive, top titled and bred dogs, they could make a cross breed with any breed available in the world, for that matter.

The issue being discussed is if these pictures posted from the OP are honest portrayals of real dogs from the closed gene pool of the GSD.

There seems to me to be more reasons why they are not, and if they are, then it was a fad that was short-lived. I hope Daryl will expand on his thoughts why "especially" the Chinese would do this since he feels they are capable of doing it, too.

HM...I just went to the link you posted and it seems Ibrahim and I were sharing jokes?

LMAO

It seems 'something got left @ the vets' with that second thred supposedly of Ibrahim's - all of us, me, Sunny, Bee, apparently got something different ! What came up for me was a May '15 thred re Crossing SL & WL.
Gawd knows what happened there - there were one or two problems with people getting the wrong achived threds following one of Oli's revamps, so maybe that's why ???

@ Sunny: sorry about that, don't understand that either. I faithfully copied the title & ref number from the thred which came up when I Site-searched for "China + massive heads".

i don't think people understand how fast you a breed can deteriorate within a few generations.

Best example, look at Hawaii. We've got two dogs in this area coming from the Island and it's hard to believe that within 5 Generations they turned those dogs, that came from once super bloodlines into what they are today.

Bee: Nobody has said that this is only about a 'cultural trait'; you took a similar line with other posters on the 2013 thred because they suggested much the same as I have.

Let's start again, shall we ?:
It is my observation that SOME Chinese dog owners are used to seeing and liking SOME of their national breeds, where there is SOME evidence of making heads larger than in those same breeds when produced elsewhere in the world. Nobody is criticising them for doing that; but if that is a factor, as it might well be, in them preferring great big blocky, lippy heads on GSDs, WHICH ARE FAULTY, and contributes to them importing dogs with heads going on that way, and THEN BREEDING ON FROM THEM - with or without the help of an injection of other breeds - then that could well account for this trend of SOME of the GSDs (or GSD crosses) in China looking like this. To whatever extent hasn't been exagerated further by people playing with photo images. You have to realise that this isn't happening by total accident. You also have to realise that a dog which (otherwise than its head) looks so much like a GSD and is being shown as a GSD and has the name GSD all over so many websites ALMOST CERTAINLY HAS AT LEAST 'SOME' GSD in it, and is therefore highly unlikely to be an attempt to create some entirely new Chinese breed.

It may come as a surprise to you, but you are not the only person to have had conversations with Chinese people about dogs, so if this is about you defending your particular contacts against some imaginary accusation, rest assured that isn't actually necessary.

Yeah, so you say, now. No worries here, though, I am now officially bored. Super Bowl is on, much later......