Choosing a pup/green dog.. - Page 5

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by beetree on 19 January 2017 - 03:01

The steak dinner trick isn't all that unusual. All one has to do is be consistent and understand pack drive as it relates to food possession.

The biggest reason to get a puppy from a breeder whose lines you think will match your prospect potential is the simple fact that it is much easier to prevent unwanted behaviors than to correct them.

Good luck finding what you seek.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 19 January 2017 - 07:01

"& while (they) seemed to have a nice switch, I could see (they) were on edge, even during the Off", so you were concerned if those dogs would be okay, off their known ground, if some kid ran at them screaming.

Hmmm... if a dog is out on whatever 'trial' field the owner usually uses to demonstrate their abilities to potential buyers, are they not likely to remain 'on edge' in the vicinity, in the hope of another go at the sleeve ? Not sure how you can extrapolate from that they cannot safely switch off in a domestic environment. [Or your post is short on some crucial detail, Babbles - like you had then got in a van and driven 10 minutes back to the home kennel ?] Perhaps one of the posters who regularly works dogs can shed some light on that one. Would be grateful to learn.

Dogs on the street - any dog; GSD or not, bite trained or not, Golden Retriever or not - is just as likely to react defensively if a strange kid races at it, yelling. I'm not sure even I would want a dog I could trust 100% in those circumstances, I'd have to check it still had a pulse ! Surely part of the responsibilities of dog ownership is to make sure we are in a position to control at all times, rather than have our attention elsewhere and rely on miracles ?

by babbles24 on 19 January 2017 - 12:01

Hundmutter what i gave an example and the point i was trying to make is that on the street there are additional stress factors. The demo was focusing on the civilness of the dog and there were no sleeves and no bites.. Anyway...

"I'm not sure even I would want a dog I could trust 100% in those circumstances, I'd have to check it still had a pulse ! " thats a bit dramatic don't you think?
How you go about it, is train and socialise your dog from a very early stage, and teach it that these weird little creatures are kids and will sometimes act in odd ways, they are not a threat!

" Surely part of the responsibilities of dog ownership is to make sure we are in a position to control at all times"
This is very helpful but not for the reason you might think. When it comes to a family dog, realistically speaking, it is impossible for you to watch over its shoulder ALL the time, life simply does not work that way.
You might be referring to specific working dogs, that they are kenneled, taken out for work or training and then being put back to their kennel, as their genetics or lack of training prevents them from being trustworthy pets, i don't disagree with you on that, but thats not what i am looking for in a first place..

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 19 January 2017 - 13:01

Yeah okay I was being a bit flip / shorthandesque there, Babbles. But of course daily life with a powerful working breed dog has its stresses and strains. Point is, how do these get dealt with ?
Obviously nobody in their right mind wants their dog to go into full attack & bite mode with a random child running into it on the high street; no more than anyone actively wants their dog to cringe and run away from said child.

But if you want to have a dog which WILL bite (anybody), by design, you have to step up to the plate and recognise the dog will probably trigger fairly easily in what - to humans - it should see as the 'wrong' circumstances. Chaz is right about this much at least, that in training dogs NOT to be proactively aggressive, we surely train OUT much of that which people looking for 'Personal Protection' want IN there.

Personally I have never understood this obsessive interest some have with owning a dog that will 'bite for real', a PP dog so 'civil' that it becomes a bit of a liability in daily living. Particularly, I might add, in 21st Century Britain where that sort of use of a canine, outside any actual kind of Enforcement role, is unsupported in legal terms. I also don't think it was what Von Stephanitz envisaged for 'his' breed. At the beginning of this thred it sounded like you were not even sure you wanted to bitework your dog in Sport, to any great extent; and were therefore concerned not to have too strong a dog living within your family. Now it begins to sound like you want more than an 'all-rounder' GSD, you want a weapon.

I think you are right about the kenneling of truly working dogs. Security Dogs I used to work with were kennelled out - though I would happily have had most of them living in with me. But then I was relying on Ob. rather than Manwork training, with most of them; and I don't have children.

I think you may have to face that (just as Susie's 2 lists seemed to indicate) you can't have BOTH things YOU want IN THE SAME PACKAGE.

For my personal companion GSDs I have been able to rely on them having a degree of discernment and an ability & desire to wish to protect me; but it is more trouble than its worth to have that  'barking deterrant' tip over into actual aggression, (or for me to have actively trained that aggression into them). Funnily enough the two dogs I had for the longest time on that basis were bred by an English 'Show' kennel, now defunct through the death some years ago of my mentor. I don't think the hairy hearthrug I live with now could be induced to bite anybody, but as she is an elderly 'rescue' and from 'Alsatian' lines to boot, I can forgive her that ! [You have indicated a lack of interest in home-grown breeding, so I doubt you'd have been interested in any recommendation of that kennel from me, even if it was still with us.]


by babbles24 on 19 January 2017 - 14:01

"Chaz is right about this much at least, that in training dogs NOT to be proactively aggressive, we surely train OUT much of that which people looking for 'Personal Protection' want IN there."
Chaz is that what you meant? If so, isn't there any way around it?

Hundmutter, i have no interest in "sports", nothing wrong with the sport its just not for me. Obedience training is the first thing i focus, but a flashy heel is not necessary for me, at the end of the day all i want to achieve via obedience is to have a good citizen.

Please correct me if i am wrong here, and other posters please weigh in:
From what you say i understand that i have two options: Either i have a dog that is society-safe but pretty much all to can do is deter, or i have a dog that will not be society safe but it will be a weapon?
And i will continue by attaching this "I think you may have to face that (just as Susie's 2 lists seemed to indicate) you can't have BOTH things YOU want IN THE SAME PACKAGE."

I cannot pass a comment on that as i don't have the knowledge(i wish you are wrong though :) ) but other members could possibly give me their input on the above paragraph?

Hundmutter, let me make it clear, i have no issue with the breeders here, my decision is not based on prejudice or anything, but rather on the fact that i can't seem to find what i am looking for here, and we seem to agree on that, the only difference is that you believe that what i am looking for can't be found anywhere, i don't disbelieve it, i am taking under advisement and i would like to exhaust all the avenues before i call it quits-hence my search for breeders abroad..

by beetree on 19 January 2017 - 15:01

I think the point is that if you are the right sort of trainer with the type of dog you claim to want, then you will be more likely to end up successful in guiding the genetic potential of its breeding.

Gaining that experience happens while raising the pup and creating the bond.

That you ask certain questions or how you give descriptions belies a certain lack of experience for a more extreme dog, so that a green PPD choice that is expected to also be a discerning home companion really depends more on you.

Only certain types of breeders will be wanting to tell you exactly what you want to hear, and then others won't volunteer anything further because of the question they don't know the answer to: What would you do if the dog you got was a disappointment in some area? What would you expect the breeder to do in that case?

If you aren't realistic in your involvement and ability that is needed for the dog to be all you want from its potential, then an overseas purchase with no contract guarantees will be the easier way to go.

IMHO and Good luck in your search, best wishes for success.


Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 19 January 2017 - 15:01

I have a good friend in the UK. I will ask him who he would go to and send you his reply in a PM. Mayanser was there but I don't think they're doing anything with those dogs since he passed away. But, his family might know who has his bloodlines.

by babbles24 on 19 January 2017 - 16:01

@beetree The question to the concern you raised has already been answered to a reply to Chaz..
I admit i am green to working dogs and i would like the breeder to work with me, no BS sheer truth-even if thats not what i would have liked to hear, the fact that sometimes i question things does not mean that i am argumentative, it just means that i am trying to understand further..
But, thank you for your wishes! :)

@Jenni78 ok!


by beetree on 19 January 2017 - 16:01

It is a jungle out there in breederland. Do be careful. I noticed you did not care to answer the questions I posed as a type of hypothetical breeder.

Good luck is usually needed!


by babbles24 on 19 January 2017 - 18:01

beetree i had answered it in a previous post, but i will do it again.

Lets say that i got a puppy and it grew up to be a nice family dog but couldn't cut in protection, so be it, nothing would change, i would have no expectations from the breeder to do something about it.
Same scenario but reverse, the puppy grew up to kick ass in protection but unstable around family/social life. If i couldn't fix it, i would rehome it and again i would have no expectations from the breeder.
I do appreciate that a puppy is a risk and none can give you a 100% certainty-if they did they would be lying.

Now if i got a green dog, and it was unstable i would return it to the breeder and i would expect the breeder to take it back and refund me, as at that age the breeder should have been able to evaluate the dog appropriately on that department.
If a green dog was a dream family dog, could do some protection but nothing amazing or couldn't do protection at all, i guess it would depend on what the breeder had promised and what i had paid for the dog e.g if i paid 5k, promised the moon and the dog couldn't do anything i would ask for a partial refund so we would end up in a fair trade..

Reasonable enough?







 


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