what colours will my pups be - Page 2

Swarm, all the pedigrees would be the same for the litter, but I did a search on an old computer here and found a pic of one of the black males, Nemo. I'll put his ped up soon as I put it on pdb.
In the mean time: This is a sable littermate;

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1967026-nelson-vom-ron
 

Sorry, should probably have written "PROBABLY won't show up in the one litter" - I was just working on the whole "throw of the dice" effect, because when Duke used the word "expect", I don't think you can necessarily "expect" particular colours to occur in any one litter. Look at the variation between litters when there is a sable parent involved; just because the mathematical situation (probability) is that you ought to get half your litter B&T and half Sable, we know well enough that while the 50% can work out over time, in the one litter of (say) eight pups, you rarely get an even 4 B&T and 4 Sable. You may just as likely get 3 of one and 5 of the other; sometimes you get ALL sables (or ALL B&T) and none of the other at all, in THAT litter. Was not looking to confuse anyone.

Instead of 'expect' use 'possible'. I don't believe English is duke's first language.

I hope for an even litter of male/ female. Out of nine pups in a litter, how would you 'expect' the split to be?
Just 'throwing the dice', with a 50/50 chance for either?

thanks joan, im not hoping for any colours just good dogs, but just interested in possabilities, in previous litters she allways produced blacks, bicolour and sable

In a litter of nine, given my scenario that one parent is sable and one is black&gold, I would not "expect" a preponderence of either colour. Like you, Joan, I primarily hoped for 'even' litters, although that was more in things like size, bone strength, temperament, before it was about colour (much as I personally have a 'soft spot' for sables !). I would therefore be completely unsurprised if 5 or 6 - or more - of them were sables. But they often have not been. Last two litters with a sable parent (dam) in my care broke down as follows: A) 3 b&t, 1 gray; B) of 9, 4 sable + 5 b&t.

Might be worth bearing in mind we in the UK do very few sable-to-sable matings; being used to seeing a lot more sable-to-sable breedings might skew 'expectations' a bit.

I have seen a number of mostly B&G parented litters over the years where a grandparent or two were all-black, where the owners were delighted with puppies that looked SO dark in the days immediately after birth that they were convinced they were going to get a black puppy, or few;
only to realise a week or so later that the gold was creeping onto the eyebrows and ankles.

Duke, sorry for the confusion I seem to have caused you. I was speaking to hundmother in reference to the 'throwing dice' as to chances for color. As an analogy, I said, "I hope for an even litter of male/ female."

Not referencing color there at all. Only gender ( as in 'male/female).
To answer your op, duke I stand by this answer; * black, bi, b/t *

Explanation for you, still as follows;


'Why do you not think black is an option, duke? You said a grand parent was black. Unless you know there are not any black recessive in any of the others in the breeding, blacks are cpossible.

As for not getting any until the breeding is repeated doesn't make sense to me.
I bred two sables together, first and only litter, and got three out of seven pups solid/self black. The closest black dog on the male side was three generations back.
On the female, she was GSL on top of her sire, so no blacks. And on her mother's side, I don't know where the black is, can't see it in her ped, but it certainly is there somewhere....just not real close, maybe third or fourth gen.

So from experience, I would not say 'no black pups in this litter are possible'.
After all, getting a black pup is not the same as getting a sable, where at least one parent of the litter must be sable.

Good luck with your litter, and hope you have a happy, prosperous New Year.

Duke, you stated the female is bi-color, and that she produced SABLE in previous litters. In order for a bi-color female to produce sable pups, she must be bred to a sable male.
Did you breed her to sable male when she produced sable pups?

FYI Joanro, this dog

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=6111-pushka-vom-haus-himpel

DOES show up way back in the dam's pedigree. There could be more in later generations, but the pedigree isn't complete, and one shouldn't comment not knowing the dogs personally.

Updated to add: In another thread re colour, posters are too quick to discount any possibility of recessive black or recessive non-tan modifiers(hypothetical) hiding behind dominant black. They do show up unexpectedly, because they are recessive!

yes she was bred to sable previously, and im not into the colour scheduals but just didnot expect solid black was to be expected out of bi to BT
I will know in 3 plus weeks what they will look like colourwise, I hope on some reversed masks in there

my other breeding is black on black so thats a no brainer LOL

As I understand the genetics, Joan, the split between male & female pups would be similar to that described for sables. Different genes but same 50%/50% odds. Therefore similar results. Sorry I did not pick up on the sudden switch from colours (we were discussing) to genders (which we were not).