Question about color genetics..what are these pups? - Page 3

He's saying that wolf gray (sable/Agouti) is the "original" color and all the other colors are mutations.

Black and tan and bicolor are two different alleles ("mutations") of agouti. I have a website that may help you understand what he means. Give me a moment to find it. I'll edit this post and put it in.

 

Edit: That was my understanding of what he said, anyway. Here's the website: http://www.jmadesign.com/Frankenhaus/colorgen01.shtml

Thank you, Reliya! That would be great!!

I did see one color chart and it had the combo of a sable who was black recessive bred to a black and tan who was black recessive had a chance of producing either bi-color with black recessive or black and tan with black recessive (and of course 50% sable). But when I then did cross for bicolor with black recessive to black the percentage of a black and tan was zero. So, I was thinking the sire must be a black and tan to get the brown on the pups faces even though he is jet black in the face and chest.

So, I guess I didn't know bi-colors could have brown on their faces just like black and tan blankets. Maybe that is where the melanistic thing comes in where the black overrides the tan and the dog looks black everywhere but legs and butt. I had the view of others mentioned that a bicolor is a black dog with brown on legs and under tail only. How do you tell what pups have the melanistic trait? I am guessing probably time...rats!

Obviously, as you can see, I am still confused. I honestly thought I would get only black or bi-color puppies (meaning looking like sire) based on the parents with the sire being jet black everywhere but legs and under tail and being black recessive and dam solid black.

Thus, I need to have a working understanding of what to tell me puppy buyers when they ask me again!! I think they think the pups will also look like sire as that is what I thought too!

Even though I tell them color is not important, they still NEED to know!!

Editing: looked at chart. So, I guess bi-colors can have tan on faces. I don't know how to tell them from a  heavily blanketed black and tan though so I guess I am still confused. 

 

Also, with all that black floating around, I was shocked to see a couple of partially pink noses. You would think with all that pigment, pink noses would not appear. The two partial pink noses are on the bicolor/black tan pups. The other 5 are jet black. No white on chests. Maybe they will darken up with age?

All living things get half their genes from mom, half from dad. With coat color, there are two alleles inherited. If you have a sable with recessive black and a black and tan with recessive black, you can only get sable puppies, black and tan puppies, or black puppies. No bicolor.

That is my point!!!! Exactly!!!! That was my original post!!!!! So, I was confused because the sire is listed as a bi-color!!! And, damn if he doesn't look the part! He is even more gorgeous in person!! Jet black with just tan on legs and under tail. So, I couldn't figure it out based on the chart I found.... I will edit to post it in.

 

Link: http://www.altostland.com/colors.html

Sable is aw (for GSD), black is lowercase A, black and tan is as. (According to the link.)


Sable with recessive black: aw/a
Black and tan with recessive black: as/a

Puppies can only get these combinations: aw/as (sable with recessive black and tan), aw/a (sable with recessive black), as/a (black and tan with recessive black), a/a (recessive black).

If your dog is bicolor with recessive black (at/a) bred to a recessive black female, the puppies will either be at/a (bicolor with black) or a/a (black).

Some people think that bicolors are just black and tan that don't have as an extreme creeping tan as saddle backs. If you think that way, it'll probably save you some confusion. Lol.

So dam is solid black so looking at sire parents:

Sable father/black recessive= aw + a

Black and Tan mom/Black recessive= as + a

Kids= 50% sable, 25% black tan/recessive black, and 25% black

Maybe Mom is really a Bicolor and not a black an tan although she had a lot of brown....

If your dog is from a black and tan dam, maybe he's a mechanistic black and tan? If the puppies are still pretty much black by the time they're two months old, they probably won't lose much, if any, black as they age. The only way to know for sure what they are would be to do a genetic test, but either way, it doesn't matter so long as they're good, healthy, and happy dogs.

(Of course it lets me post after I decided to edit my other one. Anyway, goodnight.)

Bicolor and black and tan are about the same as your mom's lasagna to my mom's lasagna.

You could say that only three patterns (not colors) exist; sable, black and tan, and black.

You could say that only four patterns exist; sable, black and tan, bicolor, and black.

You could say that only five patterns exist; sable, black and tan, blanket back, bicolor, and black.

You could say that only six patterns ...

The number of patterns is irrelevant when discussing PHENOtype, the only thing that is important is that we all agree on a common definition. In my opinion, GENOtype is damn near infinite, the most similar allele Variants are shared between parent and offspring, excluding occurrences of mutation.

I would hazard a guess that the offspring with the tan on cheeks have a genotype of as + as, whereas the parents without the tan on cheeks have an genotype of as + a. Recessive alleles can still affect the phenotype.